HIGH TIME MOONEY 201???

[MATTS875]

Hello , I am looking at a 6800 TT mooney 201 .I understand that the TT is High but should that make me shigh away from it. I was debating a F model but really like the 201 better.go figure. i know the ideal would be a lower TT 201 but that is out of my budget.The plane has fuel bladders, 880 SMOH .please let me know what your thoughts are..thanks.I am trying to pay outright for the plane. I am going through the  Well for a little more I can get this one thought process but I am at the end of the budget..What are your thoughts  it is a 1978 model.

[DaV8or]

I'm sure Parker will be along soon to give his opinion. He used to fly a relatively high time 201 and was just fine with it. I think it might be all a matter of how it was cared for.

[rbridges]

Agreed with Dave.  My biggest concern would be resale.  If you plan on selling it in the near future, other potential buyers may have the same condern as you.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Hey Matt,

I had a 1990 M20J that had been put through its paces as a trainer at ERAU.  I was the third owner and picked it up at 6904 hours.  A pre-purchase at a reputable Mooney Service Center is a must.  Mine was MSC maintained in the past.  The plane gave me about 300 hours of service over 20 months.  The only maintenance-related flight cancellation I had was a leaky kerosene compass.

High airframe time should allow you to get in the airframe you want at a discount.  You will have a smaller pool of buyers when you decide to sell down the road.  However, priced competitively to sell, you won't have any trouble.

I had a buyer arranged for my plane in less than a week.  We closed 60 days later due to both of us being in no particular rush.

It gives you the opportunity to get in a nice airframe, make big improvements, and still be in at a relatively low entry price.

I had a less-than-20 year old airframe, glass panel, brand new interior airplane at a significant discount.

 

[fantom]

Matt....welcome again to MooneySpace!

Really no need to SHOUT at us, or to post the same question on 3 or 4 threads to get our attention. You're receiving good suggestions, but it's very distracting for us, and probably a pain for you to track.

Parker is giving you experienced advise; just remember he changes planes more often than most of us change underwear.

Good luck with the purchase.

 

[MATTS875]

Quote: fantom

Matt....welcome again to MooneySpace!

Really no need to SHOUT at us, or to post the same question on 3 or 4 threads to get our attention. You're receiving good suggestions, but it's very distracting for us, and probably a pain for you to track.

Parker is giving you experienced advise; just remember he changes planes more often than most of us change underwear.

Good luck with the purchase.

 Sorry about the multiple posts but I posted it by accident in the selling section and was unaware how to delete it.Thanks for all the replies.

[KSMooniac]

Mooneys do not have a structural fatigue problem like some other airframes do, so high TT is not really a concern except for the uninformed buyers, which is why they sell at a discount IMO.  So long as the plane has been maintained and had the "wear" items replaced and isn't riddled with corrosion, then there is no reason not to consider one.  A 6000 hr airframe with new gear biscuits, various new rod-ends, tanks re-sealed, etc. can be a much better plane than one with 2500 hrs and a lot of original components that hasn't been maintained very well.

[jetdriven]

So many buyers only want the 1500 hour hangar queens.  Hours are a deduction in value (same as danage history) but you essentially get the same airplane for less money. I will concede that things like rod ends, flap hinges, and screws wear out eventually and you are replacing more of these on a higher time airframe, but the structural life is essentially unlimited.  For example, our company retired a plane that had 145,000 hours on it. I flew it the last week we had it, it flew great. 

Evaluate all planes based on condition of airframe and engine,  hours, damage, equipment, paint and interior.  Im sure there are a few more, but arrive at some value and if its a good deal and no major items, its a deal.

[201er]

Just to balance the discussion a little, some of the pitfalls and reasons why high time air frames may be lower in value:

-Repair screw ups get compounded over time.

-Paperwork becomes more difficult or impossible to trace

-More time, more chances of missing paperwork

-More time most likely means more owners or different people (renters) flying the plane with different levels of experience, standards, and care

-The plane has been through more overhauls, maintenance, and repairs. This makes things more worn out like connections, cowlings (being taken on and off more times), etc.

-When trading hands, a prebuy to trace all the logbooks, 337s, etc will take (and cost) more

-The longer it's been flying, the more time/chance for having accident history (and inadequate repairs/paperwork)

 

There was a paperwork nightmare buying my 4200TTAF 201 so I can only imagine what it could be on something a lot more than that. I know there will be exception cases of a 10000 hour plane that only had two owners in prisitine conditions, but my point is that higher time airframes are lower in price for a reason. Just some stuff to keep in mind.

[John Pleisse]

Low time airframes that have been sitting require work. High time airframes that have been flown, require work. The real concern to the airframe is turbulence and landing cycles. In a low time airframe, there is statistically fewer encounters of each. Mooneys are well built, but not impervious to the ravages of use. High time frames also always seem to have something breaking...usually not airworthy stuff like hinges, handles, levers, vernier controls, bad glass, camlocks, rivots, mounts, cosmetics, fiberglass cracks, etc. And over time, these things wear you down, nickel and diming you to death.

A low time airframe should always be your first choice.  Most people who have real nice, mechanically sound planes go out of their way to hang on to them. If it is for sale....it will need work, count on it. Get the low time airfame if you can and negotiate well.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jetdriven

So many buyers only want the 1500 hour hangar queens.  Hours are a deduction in value (same as danage history) but you essentially get the same airplane for less money. I will concede that things like rod ends, flap hinges, and screws wear out eventually and you are replacing more of these on a higher time airframe, but the structural life is essentially unlimited.  For example, our company retired a plane that had 145,000 hours on it. I flew it the last week we had it, it flew great. 

Evaluate all planes based on condition of airframe and engine,  hours, damage, equipment, paint and interior.  Im sure there are a few more, but arrive at some value and if its a good deal and no major items, its a deal.

[jetdriven]

747-200. It was delivered in 1975.  I think the aircraft spent more of its life in the air than on the ground.  Aircraft are built to last.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: jetdriven

747-200. It was delivered in 1975.  I think the aircraft spent more of its life in the air than on the ground.  Aircraft are built to last.

[John Pursell]

[PTK]

Quote: N4352H

Low time airframes that have been sitting require work. High time airframes that have been flown, require work. 

A low time airframe should always be your first choice.   Get the low time airfame if you can and negotiate well.

[jetdriven]

Metal fatigue only happens when you repeatedly bend the metal to the elastic limit.  Since it doesnt bend, the life of your plane effectively infinite.  Look at what hapens with the coil springs in your car, or the crankshaft and rods in your Lycoming engine.  Nothing, because they are not stressed anywhere near their design limit.  If there was a life limit, the FAA would put a limit on it.

 

Corrosion is a separate issue, but yes, it weakens metal.

[Cruiser]

A low time airframe does fly much so the owner is hesitant to spend money on something they don't use often.

A high time airframe is appreciated by its owner who is willing to invest in keeping it in top shape because it flies so often.

[sreid]

Quote: jetdriven

Metal fatigue only happens when you repeatedly bend the metal to the elastic limit.  Since it doesnt bend, the life of your plane effectively infinite.  Look at what hapens with the coil springs in your car, or the crankshaft and rods in your Lycoming engine.  Nothing, because they are not stressed anywhere near their design limit.  If there was a life limit, the FAA would put a limit on it.

 

Corrosion is a separate issue, but yes, it weakens metal.

[KSMooniac]

sreid is correct regarding aluminum fatigue.  Some GA airframes have fatigue concerns, but Mooneys are not one of them, at least as far as I've read/heard but it is theoretically possible (or probable) that a Mooney could eventually have fatigue damage that could render it unairworthy, but that might be at 20,000 hours or 100,000 hours.  It is impossible to say without doing a full fatigue analysis, which was not required when the M20 was certified long ago.  Regardless, I wouldn't fret too much at buying a 5000 or 10000 hour airframe that has been maintained well.

[Ned Gravel]

Quote: KSMooniac

sreid is correct regarding aluminum fatigue.  Some GA airframes have fatigue concerns, but Mooneys are not one of them, at least as far as I've read/heard but it is theoretically possible (or probable) that a Mooney could eventually have fatigue damage that could render it unairworthy, but that might be at 20,000 hours or 100,000 hours.  It is impossible to say without doing a full fatigue analysis, which was not required when the M20 was certified long ago.  Regardless, I wouldn't fret too much at buying a 5000 or 10000 hour airframe that has been maintained well.