So Many Planes Choices! Need Biased Perspective

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Ross,

Not sure on the proper progression... but MSers have started here and moved on to turbines...

After Rocket comes turbine home built... Lancair PTIV, flying according to Tom...

After Ovation comes turbine Piper... P46T,  flying according to Jerry...

Something to do with the Rocket Engineering experience one gains...

Following along with Erik’s recommendation..... The Beechcraft Harpoon...

Listen to Darwin Conrad tell how many, of what, Rocket Engineering has converted...  (see video attached below)

I have seen a twin turbine conversion at my home drome...

The Standing O is a Rocket Engineering / Midwest Mooney project...

I got help on the decision to go Standing O from Cris, who generously offered to fly me in his Screamin’ Eagle... 

How is that for some home spun bias..? 

As far as economics go... the turbines cost a bunch more to acquire, but they last equally longer...(?) 

Starting out, keep an eye on insurance costs... that first year can be an eye opener...

this is AAA’s list of things for sale... many of which are probably at their home base... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

To find Jimmy and David... In Spring Branch...  http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/contact.htm

Don’t get me wrong... the following is a video of a PT6 turbine... wrapped in some funky brand b clothes...

If only it were wrapped properly in Brand M Clothing.... 

(technically, the PT6 is a bit big for a four seater...)

Best regards,

-a-

 

If my stock goes up I would likely be a turbine buyer. It’s just not realistic unless your very prosperous. The care, feeding and fuel bills greatly exceed what it costs to keep a piston recip. TN’d recip is the most thermally efficient engine running at the most aerodynamically efficient altitudes. A turbo normalized A36 will break 200kt in the high teens and do it on 16-17gph. Gould luck doing that with a turbine.

A Lancair IVP might be a good choice. I don’t think they have a TKS option.

[StevenL757]

16 hours ago, irishpilot said:

Hey all, I'm a former M20E owner and sold because I moved to Hawaii. Well now I'm moving to San Antonio and it's time for another plane! However I'm struggling with choices. My top three are Ovation, SR22T, and mid '80s Malibu. The only one I haven't flown is the Malibu. Insurance is rough and no T Hangars for the Malibu.

Here's my requirements: O2, able to fly on FLs, around 200 TAS, 850 useful (min), and $350k or less. Desired is ice protection and maybe AC.

Cirrus are awesome but the market is narrow for $350k but the Garmin Perspective is awesome.

I am partial to Mooney's because of economic speed but there are so many choices (Rocket, Ovation, Bravo) any help is greatly appreciated.

Lastly, shameless plug: anyone with a 200kt Mooney around KSAT, I'd live to go flying. Gas and lunch on me!

Ryan

Welcome back Ryan.  Agree with others that if you don’t need the turbo features and added maintenance costs, my completely biased opinion is an Ovation.  Sink around $200k into a nice one, circa 1998-2004 model year with TKS, and hold back some in your budget for engine, prop, and cockpit as needed.

Steve

[Davidv]

I was feeling pretty good about my Bravo last weekend when I flew it from Nashville to FXE (702nm on the route I took) in about 3:30 with a decent tailwind at 15.5k.  Before I left there was a guy in an A36 on the line next to me and he asked where I was going.  I told him and he looked surprised and said “you can make it that far without stopping?” I told him I could probably go another 200-300 miles further. I also run at ROP so the fuel flow isn’t as good as an ovation but I like the ability to climb above most non-storm cloud layers.

[wcb]

11 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Have you considered a Turbo Normalized A36? Both are TKS equipped.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33211133/2001-beechcraft-a36-bonanza

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33186279/1992-beechcraft-a36-bonanza

 

I have to wonder what the price point on these two birds are???  Since it says call.  Those are some very nice birds and do seem to fit his mission.  For him I would look at a Bo like these over a Malibu as well as continue the Ovation search.  To bad he missed the 4 blade ovation in the for sale section now.  That one was at my home field and would have been a great bird for his mission.

[wcb]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

Ross,

Not sure on the proper progression... but MSers have started here and moved on to turbines...

After Rocket comes turbine home built... Lancair PTIV, flying according to Tom...

After Ovation comes turbine Piper... P46T,  flying according to Jerry...

Something to do with the Rocket Engineering experience one gains...

Following along with Erik’s recommendation..... The Beechcraft Harpoon...

Listen to Darwin Conrad tell how many, of what, Rocket Engineering has converted...  (see video attached below)

I have seen a twin turbine conversion at my home drome...

The Standing O is a Rocket Engineering / Midwest Mooney project...

I got help on the decision to go Standing O from Cris, who generously offered to fly me in his Screamin’ Eagle... 

How is that for some home spun bias..? 

As far as economics go... the turbines cost a bunch more to acquire, but they last equally longer...(?) 

Starting out, keep an eye on insurance costs... that first year can be an eye opener...

this is AAA’s list of things for sale... many of which are probably at their home base... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

To find Jimmy and David... In Spring Branch...  http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/contact.htm

Don’t get me wrong... the following is a video of a PT6 turbine... wrapped in some funky brand b clothes...

If only it were wrapped properly in Brand M Clothing.... 

(technically, the PT6 is a bit big for a four seater...)

Best regards,

-a-

 

The Turbine BO is AWESOME!!!!!  I have tried to get a buddy of mine to move from a A36 Bo to a Turbine Bo!

[Jerry 5TJ]

51 minutes ago, wcb said:

The Turbine BO is AWESOME!!!!!  I have tried to get a buddy of mine to move from a A36 Bo to a Turbine Bo!

Perhaps if you offer to buy in and pay half of the cost he would listen. 

[Shadrach]

56 minutes ago, wcb said:

I have to wonder what the price point on these two birds are???  Since it says call.  Those are some very nice birds and do seem to fit his mission.  For him I would look at a Bo like these over a Malibu as well as continue the Ovation search.  To bad he missed the 4 blade ovation in the for sale section now.  That one was at my home field and would have been a great bird for his mission.

Was it deiced.  Those Bo's are likely at the top of his budget if not a tad over.  A 200KT, deiced bird that will sip fuel in the high teens and twentys while carrying a good load is rare.

I would likely prefer the Malibu's cabin and pressurization.

[smccray]

2 hours ago, wcb said:

I have to wonder what the price point on these two birds are???  Since it says call.  Those are some very nice birds and do seem to fit his mission.  For him I would look at a Bo like these over a Malibu as well as continue the Ovation search.  To bad he missed the 4 blade ovation in the for sale section now.  That one was at my home field and would have been a great bird for his mission.

My guess- the 1992 is going to be in the $350 range at least. The 2001 is probably $450+

[Hank]

2 hours ago, wcb said:

I have to wonder what the price point on these two birds are???  Since it says call.  

I hate ads like these, and never call. Househunting one time, i picked my realtor by checking ads and called the one with the highest percentage of listed prices. Told them my selection criteria, too, just hoped they bragged about the sale to their friends who listed so few prices.

Maybe you or he have time to call folks to see if what they're selling is in your price range. I just assume "call for price" means it's so high the seller is embarrassed to show it . . . . .

Happy hunting!!

[smccray]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

If my stock goes up I would likely be a turbine buyer. It’s just not realistic unless your very prosperous. The care, feeding and fuel bills greatly exceed what it costs to keep a piston recip. TN’d recip is the most thermally efficient engine running at the most aerodynamically efficient altitudes. A turbo normalized A36 will break 200kt in the high teens and do it on 16-17gph. Gould luck doing that with a turbine.

A Lancair IVP might be a good choice. I don’t think they have a TKS option.

It’s not just the gph that matters. It’s the fuel cost per mile. 100LL is so much more expensive than Jet A that the higher fuel burn with a turbo prop is no big deal.  At the same capital cost would take the higher fuel burn of the turbine engine.

Acquisition cost was out of my budget but I briefly considered a turbine conversion. The Silver Eagle (P210 conversion) made more sense to me than the Bonanza. There’s some good info on the different bonanza conversions at Beechtalk- at the end of the day I would want pressurization with a Turbine engine. 

TN A36 Photo attached- 190 true at 13,000 ft on just over 16 GPH.

[exM20K]

21 hours ago, irishpilot said:

 

 

Hey all, I'm a former M20E owner and sold because I moved to Hawaii. Well now I'm moving to San Antonio and it's time for another plane! However I'm struggling with choices. My top three are Ovation, SR22T, and mid '80s Malibu. The only one I haven't flown is the Malibu. Insurance is rough and no T Hangars for the Malibu.

 

Here's my requirements: O2, able to fly on FLs, around 200 TAS, 850 useful (min), and $350k or less. Desired is ice protection and maybe AC.

 

 

Back to the original post......

i would focus more on total cost of ownership and fit for your 80-90% mission than purchase price.

reliable use in most parts of the country almost demands icing protection, with FIKI preferred.

Turbo is useful for opening up more of the sky for ice-free tailwind-enhanced flight.

A/C is less desirable to me.  The falconry units in the TSIO550 put a lot of load on the accessory drive.  My shop reports that Mooney, Cirrus, and Columbia units are getting maybe 600 hours out of the drive, and replacing the seal requires pulling the engine six inches forward. 

Your mission sounds like a good fit for a turbo Mooney.  If you can find a FIKI Encore, jump on it.  Early Acclaims will be in your price range, and Bravo’s will give you some change back. Both can handle your family trips if you down-fuel and maybe make a feel stop  

anything with six seats and/or pressurized will be a high TCO undertaking for insurance and maintenance.  I have 5000+ hours, and rhe insurance quote for a PA46350 was almost triple my Acclaim.  

Turbines are nice, and setting aside the cost of money, the SETP”s are very low in TCO terms.  However,  minimum cost for a PA46T is going to be a half million over your stated budget, and assume a loan at 5%: that’s $25,000 a year in interest, which is pretty close to my operating cost in the Acclaim at 150 hrs per year.

one interesting option to consider if you’re willing to maintain an older, pressurized airframe is the Vitatoe turbonormalized P210.

http://www.vitatoeaviation.com/centurion-tn550-introductory-pricing/

I have no experience with these, but people reportedly  love  them.  If you’re willing to undertake a project, you could put together a sweet ride.

If you want turn-key flying with factory support, buy a turbo Mooney.

-Dan

[Jerry 5TJ]

10 minutes ago, exM20K said:

.....I have 5000+ hours, and rhe insurance quote for a PA46350 was almost triple my Acclaim.....

My P46T insurance premium is 4 times what I paid in 2017 for my 2000 Ovation.   But that’s for 4 times higher hull coverage and 5 times more liability insurance.  

Per “unit of insurance” the turboprop coverage is slightly cheaper. 

[Shadrach]

56 minutes ago, smccray said:

It’s not just the gph that matters. It’s the fuel cost per mile. 100LL is so much more expensive than Jet A that the higher fuel burn with a turbo prop is no big deal.  At the same capital cost would take the higher fuel burn of the turbine engine.

Acquisition cost was out of my budget but I briefly considered a turbine conversion. The Silver Eagle (P210 conversion) made more sense to me than the Bonanza. There’s some good info on the different bonanza conversions at Beechtalk- at the end of the day I would want pressurization with a Turbine engine. 

TN A36 Photo attached- 190 true at 13,000 ft on just over 16 GPH.

Maybe in your neck of the woods but that’s not a universal truth and even when it is true the delta is not nearly enough to offset the extra fuel burn. I’m certainly happy to pump my own gas.

This is my drome plus three surrounding airports and one one of my favorite vacation destinations:

KHGR

KFDK

KGAI

KJYO

KRKD

 

 

[smccray]

37 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Maybe in your neck of the woods but that’s not a universal truth and even when it is true the delta is not nearly enough to offset the extra fuel burn. I’m certainly happy to pump my own gas.

This is my drome plus three surrounding airports and one one of my favorite vacation destinations:

You can't tell what the real price is for Jet A based on advertised prices.  You have to be a member to get the pricing, but the savings are huge.

[irishpilot]

Thanks so much for all the advice and commentary! Well, we locked in a T-Hangar at KSAT so that rules out the PA-46. BTW, hangars are super hard to come by anywhere in the San Antonio area...waiting lists abound.

Honestly, the six seats and px would be nice, but the insurance and larger hangar would have added up to another $500-600/mo without even flying. 

Turbines are out until I hit the jackpot. I'm pretty set on turbos as I plan to fly on O2 and FLs. I've never owned a plane with AC and really need the useful load, so I'm leaning against it.

[toto]

Quote

Well, we  locked in a T-Hangar at KSAT so that rules out the PA-46.

You might check available hangar dimensions (if you have a choice). My T-hangar is 48' wide, which might be tight for a 43' wingspan but it's do-able. 

 

[aviatoreb]

16 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Bonanza turbine?

So when I raised turbine Bonanza as an option, some things to think about.

-For me, the first and foremost advantage of turbine is that it is much much more reliable than any piston engine.  I have read that the failure rate is something like 100 times lower, for the engine that is, vs say fuel systems or pilot error leading to starvation, etc.  But in any case, as a matter of safety, I would allow myself to fly night in a turbine of any flavor, even a turbine bonanza.  I consider a turbine bonanza better than a twin piston anything as far as failure rates.  So this is the main reason to go turbine.

-speed is nice, and turbines tend to be faster, but a mod plane like a turbine bonanza will only be a little faster since it is still the same airframe (primarily because of the structural speeds don't change albeit the engine may well have the speed to go faster), but also this one not being pressurized then you might not want to cruise at 25k all the time.  So consider how fast it is at 15k vs a presumed single engine say the PA46T, cruising at 25k. Likewise the fuel efficiency.

-still being less efficient at 15k would a turbine bonanza still be cheaper than a PA46T (or a tbm) since the acquisition is much much cheaper, and other than the engine, the rest of the airplane is still a bonanza, so parts and maintenance would be from the piston world expensive vs the turbine world expensive.  So I am going to call it cheaper, much cheaper - but anyone here have real experience?

-turbines are going to be less fuel efficient than pistons,. especially and middle altitudes, so even though fuel is cheaper, its going to be more expensive on fuel.  But surely a million dollar (or much more) pressurized turbine will still be much more expensive per hour.  So on that ground, I would guess that a turbine bonanza would be yes more expensive than say its turbo normalized brother, per mile, but much less expensive than a full on pressurized turbine.

-how does insurance cost on a turbine bonanza?  I would guess it is still just a bonanza?

-there are two variants of turbine bonanzas, one by rocket running a PT6 that seems like it is too much engine for the job, and also it is most efficient at FL25 and since your speed limit is the red line (vs how fast the engine can make you go)...  then there is another STC that uses the rolls Royce Allison engine originally designed for helicopters, and it is a but smaller and also optimized for mid teens.  So more fuel efficient than a pt6 at mid teens (but still much less fuel efficient than a piston).  So this one seems like the better choice I. would guess.

-the silver eagle P210 is a fantastic plane too, so I would think - I have only ever ridden in a piston p210 but they are fine airplanes.  I don't like them from aesthetics grounds and handling grounds for some reason so much - but if I had a silver eagle, it would be cool.  And it is pressurized so a good concept for a turbine conversion.  But for that reason they are much more expensive to buy than a turbine bonanza.  I have seen turbine bonanzas listing at high 300's.  A turbine p210 is getting close to the cost of a jet prop pa46 that is more desirable still.  And so it goes the airplane stair step pricing concept.  Gee for 400k I can get x, but for only another 150k I can get y, but now that I am at 550k, its almost 750 which rounds up to 800k and that is old tbm700 costs, and gee from there, I could buy a jet for just another million!  Word on the street so I have heard is that there are sometimes turbine bonanza's out there for just under 400k.  And they cost piston world to maintain.  Full stop.

-range is reduced in a turbine bonanza, even w lr tanks, because of the reduced fuel efficiency.  But they are relatively fast, faster than a p210, and anyway, the reason to buy it is there is a sweet spot in price vs the kind of reliability you might want to fly lower ifr or night.  But if you want efficiency and range, then this is not the airplane for you.

-as far as a super high speed and reliable turbine airplane, it is still a bonanza, so it operates more docile at low speeds and can operate out of short fields, shorter than any other bonanza in fact because it has beta prop, and of course amazing power for short take off roll. I think it lists at under 1000ft.

....turbine bonanza is what I consider the next best thing to buy stepping slightly up on a piston, without spending the kind of money to step up into a pressurized turbine, and the price delta seems significant.  The Allison version for me.  I can't afford it so I am just dreaming.

...a shame that there is no mooney equivalent, since I just like Mooneys more.  A 250hp turbine mooney (or 300hp) would be fab!

So I am stuck with this ol' bucket of bolts in the meanwhile. :-). For 10 years and counting....  Woa-is-me.

 

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

23 minutes ago, smccray said:

You can't tell what the real price is for Jet A based on advertised prices.  You have to be a member to get the pricing, but the savings are huge.

Yep.

For JetA you show up at the FBO & pull out your folder of fuel credit cards and fuel memberships. The list price is the starting point of negotiations.  

If like me you are “only” buying 100-125 gallons at a time you still get a substantial discount from that list price.  Probably 25% is average at our volume.   

An example:  I made the same round trip — Baltimore to Sun n Fun — two years in a row, first in the Ovation, next in the P46T.  The total fuel consumption in gallons was just about the same:  11 hours @ 17 GPH versus 6.5 hours @ 30 GPH.  The fuel cost was about half as much for the P46T as in the Mooney.

Too bad the PT6A is so expensive to buy because it is really quite reasonable to operate.  

Just ignore the CapEx and focus on the OpEx.  Owning any airplane requires a rationalization.

 

[irishpilot]

-For me, the first and foremost advantage of turbine is that it is much much more reliable than any piston engine.  I have read that the failure rate is something like 100 times lower...


-range is reduced in a turbine bonanza, even w lr tanks, because of the reduced fuel efficiency.  But they are relatively fast, faster than a p210, and anyway, the reason to buy it is there is a sweet spot in price vs the kind of reliability you might want to fly lower ifr or night.  But if you want efficiency and range, then this is not the airplane for you.
....
 
 

I appreciate the logic of stepping up to a turbine, but as a jet/turbine pilot for my professional career, any turbine conversion applied to a piston airframe comes with some pretty large tradeoffs. Turbines are more reliable, especially the PT-6 family, but they have costly mx that adds up as well. I am sure the Bonanza Turbine is a blast, but I personally will only buy a turbine that was designed from factory as such. But that's just my druthers.

Back to my original post, I have to stick with my budget and that rules out all turbines, including conversions.



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[Hank]

4 hours ago, toto said:

You might check available hangar dimensions (if you have a choice). My T-hangar is 48' wide, which might be tight for a 43' wingspan but it's do-able. 

 

I put my Mooney in a T-hangar for a while that had almost 18" clearance on each wingtip if I was right down the middle . . . . You just gotta be good with your towbar. I was rarely more than 6" to either side, and after the first few times, rarely had to pull forward to adjust position. 

[irishpilot]

@toto, just found out from my business partner it is a larger hangar. It will fit a PA-46. We are closing the PA-46 option for other reasons. Now down to Mooney and Cirrus (or Cirri @caruso!).

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[Niko182]

2 minutes ago, irishpilot said:

@toto, just found out from my business partner it is a larger hangar. It will fit a PA-46. We are closing the PA-46 option for other reasons. Now down to Mooney and Cirrus (or Cirri @caruso!).

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

The cirrus is a great bird, but for the money, you get so much more from a mooney. You can buy a mooney bravo and put 65k into the panel, and youll still have money saved over for gas.

Heres a 252 with tks and a high useful load that fits your mission perfectly. Itll do 200 in the flight levels. With that useful load can easily carry 4 people. And its ready for a g3x.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/31470673/1987-mooney-m20k-encore

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Just ignore the CapEx and focus on the OpEx.  

Truth!

[KLRDMD]

Neal has a very nice V35B with TKS and TN for sale:

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33410363/1977-beechcraft-v35b-bonanza

It has a higher time engine but is priced right.

[Davidv]

Speaking of cirrus, I love this video:

(and the fact that what looks like a bravo makes an appearance at the end).