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Lycoming is Giving an LOP talk at Oshkosh!

testwest

By testwest
in General Mooney Talk

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testwest Experienced

testwest

Posted
Posted

Hi everyone


I just noticed on the Lycoming website that they are giving a talk on LOP (Lean of Peak, for those who don't know) operations at Oshkosh! I wonder if they are going to repeat their old mantra from their Lycoming Flyer reprints from way back, or update their position on LOP. KSMooniac or anyone who has been through the Advanced Pilot Course, are you going?


LOP: The Science and the Philosophy


- Tuesday, July 26, 2011 2:30- 3:45 (Forum Pavilion 9 - Honda Generator)


This is posted on the following website:


http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/the-buzz/index.html

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

I spoke with Lycoming reps at both Air Venture and the AOPA summit last year about LOP ops. Their position is that you can do LOP with their engines but they don't recommend it. This is because running LOP reduces the margin for error with regards to detonation. The leaner you go, the closer to potential detonation you get. This doesn't mean you can't run LOP safely, it just means you have to be very careful. They insist that anyone running LOP must have proper digital instrumentation on each cylinder to do so safely. In short, they said you can do it if you are properly equiped, but be very, very careful. They don't recommend it because they don't trust all pilots to be that careful and would rather recommend ROP because of the greater detonation margins that allow for ham fisted screw ups.


Don't know what they are going to say at OSH, but I guessing it's along these lines.

Shadrach Grand Master

Shadrach

Posted
Posted

Quote: DaV8or

I spoke with Lycoming reps at both Air Venture and the AOPA summit last year about LOP ops. Their position is that you can do LOP with their engines but they don't recommend it. This is because running LOP reduces the margin for error with regards to detonation. The leaner you go, the closer to potential detonation you get. This doesn't mean you can't run LOP safely, it just means you have to be very careful. They insist that anyone running LOP must have proper digital instrumentation on each cylinder to do so safely. In short, they said you can do it if you are properly equiped, but be very, very careful. They don't recommend it because they don't trust all pilots to be that careful and would rather recommend ROP because of the greater detonation margins that allow for ham fisted screw ups.

Don't know what they are going to say at OSH, but I guessing it's along these lines.

Jeff_S Grand Master

Jeff_S

Posted
Posted

Geez Ross...Dave said in his post that he was restating the Lycoming position, and their position is well-known because they've had a write-up on it that's been distributed all over Hell's half-acre. I am in your camp and choose to use my JPI to its full advantage and fly LOP but I don't think Dave was taking a position one way or the other.


I did have a CFI in Colorado marvel at my ability to fly LOP on a Lyc 4-banger without GAMI injectors. When I told him my GAMI spread with stock injectors was about .2 he was amazed. He said "usually 4 cylinder engines don't like to fly LOP..." or something like that. I just smiled inwardly. No sense starting an argument with the guy I'm trusting to get me over that next ridge!

DaV8or Grand Master

DaV8or

Posted
Posted

Quote: Shadrach

I mean no offense Dave, but the bolded statement is complete and utter drivel... It is not factual in anyway by Lycoming's very own graphs as well as everyone else's... 

Rant, rant, rant...

Shadrach Grand Master

Shadrach

Posted
Posted

 



 


I want to apologize everyone, especially Dave if my last post came off as snarky (and also for the typos)... Embarassed  Perhaps I misinterpreted the comments about Lycoming, perhaps I was thinking of some previous exchanges we'd had before, either way, I could have been less caustic.


The basic concepts of for leaning both rich and lean of peak have been explained and posted over and over here and other places.  There have been a number of columns, articles and seminar/webinars on the subject.  I don't care how anyone chooses to run their engine. Considering all of the free info that's been available for quite some time, I think that any experienced pilot that has been involved in the discussion should at least know the basic concepts of combustion science. Especially if they're going to make statements as if they are presenting factual information.  If you're on this board, then you're tech savy enough to get the info and my experience tells me that everyone here that I've interacted with is quite bright, capable and articulate.  


I know Lycoming's position on leaning.  I also know that the engineers in Lycoming's employ understand combustion science. So my conclusion must be that Lyc's position has nothing to do with the science...maybe this will change next week at Osh.


No one at Lycoming with any techinical background and merit would [should] ever say "the leaner

you go, the closer to potential detonation you get".  So either Dave or the Lycoming rep does not know what happens to the combustion event as it goes from rich to the lean side of the air fuel ratio spectrum, yet both of them should know - regardless of what either think is best practice.  What happens when an engine is leaned is not the stuff of opinion, it is factual and repeatable... However, what is best practice, is always open for debate.


Hat tip to Jeff for calling me on out for the "tone and tenor" of my last post; I needed it...thanks!Wink 



 

Shadrach Grand Master

Shadrach

Posted
Posted

Quote: DaV8or

The messenger just got shot. Seriously, I think you should go to Oshkosh and school Lycoming face to face. It might be cathartic.

Of all the stuff that is out on the interwebs on the subject, the chart I've attached below is the most useful I've found. It is the hypothetical detonation margins required for engine certification. What is sad is, that when each and every engine is certified by the FAA, it is tested for detonation to see that it meets these guide lines. The data must be recorded somewhere. I think this data should be in the POH or something. I think it would be useful to pilots to have a chart like the one below that would illustrate exactly where your exact engine was found to detonate during testing. I imagine that the FAA and Lycoming both have this data, but I'm not sure how to get it.

KSMooniac Grand Master

KSMooniac

Posted
Posted

Quote: testwest

Hi everyone

I just noticed on the Lycoming website that they are giving a talk on LOP (Lean of Peak, for those who don't know) operations at Oshkosh! I wonder if they are going to repeat their old mantra from their Lycoming Flyer reprints from way back, or update their position on LOP. KSMooniac or anyone who has been through the Advanced Pilot Course, are you going?

LOP: The Science and the Philosophy

- Tuesday, July 26, 2011 2:30- 3:45 (Forum Pavilion 9 - Honda Generator)

This is posted on the following website:

http://www.lycoming.com/news-and-events/the-buzz/index.html

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