ADSB Traffic comes in handy

[1964-M20E]

This past Tuesday I was flying a friend who is interested in learning to fly and I was conducting an unofficial first flying lesson.  We were maneuvering  in a pretty isolated space at the edge of the Bravo when I spotted incoming traffic on my IFLY 740 with ADSB in.   He was about 4 miles with no altitude reported 143kts pretty much coming in from my 0900.  I continued at my altitude and heading to keep him approaching me at 90 degrees and increased throttle to ensure he would pass behind me.

I was at about 2500 and he was cruising along about 1500 and passed about a mile behind me.  We will never know if he saw me or not.

Without ADSB it probably would have not been an issue but ADSB allowed me to know he was there and look for him.  I was not talking to ATC at the time and maybe if they were not too busy they could have called him out as well.

I don't like the way ADSB out tattles on you but I do like the traffic and weather in.

Keep your eyes peeled out there and use all the tools you have at your disposal.

 

 

[steingar]

While I love ADSB and the situational awareness it brings, I've never worried as much as you guys about mid air collisions.  They've always been rare as hens teeth, just a few a year.  I worry more about weather, about which ADSB gives mea great deal of awareness.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

This past Tuesday I was flying a friend who is interested in learning to fly and I was conducting an unofficial first flying lesson.  We were maneuvering  in a pretty isolated space at the edge of the Bravo when I spotted incoming traffic on my IFLY 740 with ADSB in.   He was about 4 miles with no altitude reported 143kts pretty much coming in from my 0900.  I continued at my altitude and heading to keep him approaching me at 90 degrees and increased throttle to ensure he would pass behind me.

I was at about 2500 and he was cruising along about 1500 and passed about a mile behind me.  We will never know if he saw me or not.

Without ADSB it probably would have not been an issue but ADSB allowed me to know he was there and look for him.  I was not talking to ATC at the time and maybe if they were not too busy they could have called him out as well.

I don't like the way ADSB out tattles on you but I do like the traffic and weather in.

Keep your eyes peeled out there and use all the tools you have at your disposal.

Kudos.   Keep using that stuff, it's one of the best situational awareness tools we have available to us.

We live in very busy airspace down here, and, fortunately all of the many large and busy flight schools around here use ADS-B-out religiously.   The last wings meeting I attended included a talk by the guy that is one of the training safety officers at Luke AFB, where they're currently training with F-35s.   He said he's been flying fighters for 18 years and has had more close calls with traffic in the last year that he's been at Luke than the previous 17 years combined.   I asked and he said he didn't think any of it was flight school traffic.   FWIW, they don't have ADS-B in or out in the F-35 airplanes.

I've had a number of fairly close encounters recently, even with the benefit of ADS-B.    Last Sunday I was heading out of town and noticed two separate targets on a more or less closing heading with me, one behind the other.   I was still climbing out and they were both descending, and it looked like the way things would work out I'd pass over each, but not by a ton.    I never saw the first one, and by the time I spotted the second one passing under my left wing he'd turned 90 degrees and apparently stopped descending as he passed under my wing a lot closer than I'd anticipated.   Just as I looked up from that a T-6 was coming head on at me, and not very far away.   His nose started pulling up, so I thought, "Whew, he sees me," but it *kept* going up, and as I moved a little left I went under him and saw his canopy as he went vertical just as I passed him.   I figured he's gonna finish that loop and come back down around right here in just a little bit, so I steepened up the left turn and got as much away as I could.    He did not show up as an ADS-B target and I suspect he was not watching ADS-B traffic or he'd have seen me and the other two aircraft in the near vicinity.

ADS-B is a godsend.   Once in a while I have an outage and feel completely naked without it, especially once I get back in or near Phoenix airspace.   Without it you don't even know where to look, and even when you do with ADS-B you often don't see the traffic until it's very close.   I routinely alter path for traffic I don't see, and may never see.

[peevee]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

While I love ADSB and the situational awareness it brings, I've never worried as much as you guys about mid air collisions.  They've always been rare as hens teeth, just a few a year.  I worry more about weather, about which ADSB gives mea great deal of awareness.

Around here close calls are common. I was flying an approach vfr with a ii and passed directly over a Piper 200-300 feet. Adsb allowed us to spot him early and keep eyes on him

It was close enough I could see the pilots face, he never looked up so I don't think he saw us.

[flyboy0681]

Like I always say.. that traffic has always been there, we just never knew.

[Skates97]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

ADS-B is a godsend.   Once in a while I have an outage and feel completely naked without it, especially once I get back in or near Phoenix airspace.   Without it you don't even know where to look, and even when you do with ADS-B you often don't see the traffic until it's very close.   I routinely alter path for traffic I don't see, and may never see.

 

3 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

Like I always say.. that traffic has always been there, we just never knew.

I have excellent eyesight (as long as it's not closer than 18") and think I'm pretty good at spotting traffic, but on probably every flight there is someone that passes within 2-5 miles of me that I can't seem to find, despite my tablet telling me where to look. 

[Cody Stallings]

I agree with FlyBoy.

When I worked for my previous employer I spent 300-370 hours in a Mooney between Annuals. Lots of flying. 

All hours of the day an night, during the day while monitoring Center Freqs you could hear the traffic on the radio. A lot of it being airliners that are way above you an pose no threat. But you could also hear the bug smashers(just like me) that did pose a potential threat, an in most cases you would hardly every see them.

Now fast forward to that night headed back to the shop. Center freq would be in slow motion(sometimes checking in to make sure the controller isn’t sleeping).

Even though the radio traffic would be at a minimum, you could still see strobes popping in all directions.

So..... I’m a huge fan of the ADS-B for the Traffic Mostly 

[M016576]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

Kudos.   Keep using that stuff, it's one of the best situational awareness tools we have available to us.

We live in very busy airspace down here, and, fortunately all of the many large and busy flight schools around here use ADS-B-out religiously.   The last wings meeting I attended included a talk by the guy that is one of the training safety officers at Luke AFB, where they're currently training with F-35s.   He said he's been flying fighters for 18 years and has had more close calls with traffic in the last year that he's been at Luke than the previous 17 years combined.   I asked and he said he didn't think any of it was flight school traffic.   FWIW, they don't have ADS-B in or out in the F-35 airplanes.

I've had a number of fairly close encounters recently, even with the benefit of ADS-B.    Last Sunday I was heading out of town and noticed two separate targets on a more or less closing heading with me, one behind the other.   I was still climbing out and they were both descending, and it looked like the way things would work out I'd pass over each, but not by a ton.    I never saw the first one, and by the time I spotted the second one passing under my left wing he'd turned 90 degrees and apparently stopped descending as he passed under my wing a lot closer than I'd anticipated.   Just as I looked up from that a T-6 was coming head on at me, and not very far away.   His nose started pulling up, so I thought, "Whew, he sees me," but it *kept* going up, and as I moved a little left I went under him and saw his canopy as he went vertical just as I passed him.   I figured he's gonna finish that loop and come back down around right here in just a little bit, so I steepened up the left turn and got as much away as I could.    He did not show up as an ADS-B target and I suspect he was not watching ADS-B traffic or he'd have seen me and the other two aircraft in the near vicinity.

ADS-B is a godsend.   Once in a while I have an outage and feel completely naked without it, especially once I get back in or near Phoenix airspace.   Without it you don't even know where to look, and even when you do with ADS-B you often don't see the traffic until it's very close.   I routinely alter path for traffic I don't see, and may never see.

The F-35 pilot you spoke to is a friend of mine.  While we do not have ADS-B out (or in), we have a very advanced sensor and radar system which allows us to keep track of air targets very well.  Our routes to and from Luke, though, take us through some pretty busy areas with loads of VFR traffic.  Not to mention all the folks transiting the MOA’s VFR.

I’d say from my experience flying the F-35 here, that it’s not so much finding and tracking the VFR targets that’s a problem- it’s just that they tend not to see us and hence maneuver into us, sometimes at close ranges, which means we have to stay on our toes. Approach does a decent job of trying to call us out- but as you mention- it’s busy airspace- and we’re VFR typically during our recoveries to the field to expedite the recoveries and reduce the load on ATC (we stay ifr on the departure and try to get up high as quickly as possible- get out of everyone’s way and save fuel).

and I echo my friends comments- this is by far the busiest airspace I’ve flown a fighter in and out of.  To include when I was flying hornets out of Atsugi, Japan (edge of Tokyo) and Virginia Beach... Phoenix is the busiest.

ADSB is great- but it’s a sensor and has its weaknesses too.  Use your other sensors as well to find traffic (your eyes and ears) and combine all that information in your advanced mission computer (it sits on your shoulders), to stay safe out there.  

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, M016576 said:

The F-35 pilot you spoke to is a friend of mine.  While we do not have ADS-B out (or in), we have a very advanced sensor and radar system which allows us to keep track of air targets very well.  Our routes to and from Luke, though, take us through some pretty busy areas with loads of VFR traffic.  Not to mention all the folks transiting the MOA’s VFR.

I’d say from my experience flying the F-35 here, that it’s not so much finding and tracking the VFR targets that’s a problem- it’s just that they tend not to see us and hence maneuver into us, sometimes at close ranges, which means we have to stay on our toes. Approach does a decent job of trying to call us out- but as you mention- it’s busy airspace- and we’re VFR typically during our recoveries to the field to expedite the recoveries and reduce the load on ATC (we stay ifr on the departure and try to get up high as quickly as possible- get out of everyone’s way and save fuel).

and I echo my friends comments- this is by far the busiest airspace I’ve flown a fighter in and out of.  To include when I was flying hornets out of Atsugi, Japan (edge of Tokyo) and Virginia Beach... Phoenix is the busiest.

ADSB is great- but it’s a sensor and has its weaknesses too.  Use your other sensors as well to find traffic (your eyes and ears) and combine all that information in your advanced mission computer (it sits on your shoulders), to stay safe out there.  

I am surprised that the F35 does not have ADSB - I understand it is a fighter and you don't want or need it for its primary fighting mission, but I would have guessed that you do want it for easiest inclusion into the domestic airspace.  That includes for the ATC but also as you are commenting, so that the other airplanes can more easily see you as more and more we are expecting to see other airplanes on our own ADSB in systems.

I would think you would have a domestic capable ADBS transponder that you can choose to switch on or off, to use or not to use as the mission calls for.

While I would expect the $89.2M price tag would also include an extra transponder, if it did not, Can I suggest that the sky beacon would look great on the wing tip of the F35?  And not cost the taxpayer too much beyond the original cost.

https://www.bing.com/aclick?ld=e3gBrVV5dBjs-jgHEgBPuECDVUCUzJrlmWe-GBwOVu5jBkxtF8ACe8Yop2E6mUN89M82V-rTA-Qqq6bEUhYjtMHAVFTfvIIUGOdcbBOHPRwUF-irzoxLl0EpeUUqV6kZCFKQhG5MW__y9XDshtU4QUQtnhQHUY2WWm-R0QTZfCBmk4JIv4&u=aHR0cCUzYSUyZiUyZnd3dy5jaGllZmFpcmNyYWZ0LmNvbSUyZnVhdi1za3ktYmVhY29uLWNlcnRpZmllZC5odG1sJTNmdXRtX3NvdXJjZSUzZGJpbmclMjZ1dG1fbWVkaXVtJTNkY3BjJTI2dXRtX2NhbXBhaWduJTNkRHluYW1pYyUyNTIwU2VhcmNoJTI2dXRtX3Rlcm0lM2RhaXJjcmFmdCUyNnV0bV9jb250ZW50JTNkQWlyY3JhZnQ&rlid=e338329b314c11fd40196e572e8da30c

[steingar]

13 hours ago, peevee said:

Around here close calls are common. I was flying an approach vfr with a ii and passed directly over a Piper 200-300 feet. Adsb allowed us to spot him early and keep eyes on him

It was close enough I could see the pilots face, he never looked up so I don't think he saw us.

Wherever here is, midairs, as far as I've seen, are scattered across the US.  They tend to happen in the vicinity of airports and navaids, though the latter are rapidly disappearing.  Like I said, rare as hen's teeth.  You're far more likely to blunder into inadvertent weather, run out of gas, or have a mechanical dysfunction.  

[flyboy0681]

It would be interesting to go back through posts here on MS from when the ADS-B mandate became final. You would find lots of comments stating that the program will not work, it won't deliver on its promises, the cost will escalate to ten times its budget and that GA will die because the average owner won't be able to afford the $10k needed to get compliant.

[EricJ]

7 hours ago, M016576 said:

The F-35 pilot you spoke to is a friend of mine.  While we do not have ADS-B out (or in), we have a very advanced sensor and radar system which allows us to keep track of air targets very well.  Our routes to and from Luke, though, take us through some pretty busy areas with loads of VFR traffic.  Not to mention all the folks transiting the MOA’s VFR.

I’d say from my experience flying the F-35 here, that it’s not so much finding and tracking the VFR targets that’s a problem- it’s just that they tend not to see us and hence maneuver into us, sometimes at close ranges, which means we have to stay on our toes. Approach does a decent job of trying to call us out- but as you mention- it’s busy airspace- and we’re VFR typically during our recoveries to the field to expedite the recoveries and reduce the load on ATC (we stay ifr on the departure and try to get up high as quickly as possible- get out of everyone’s way and save fuel).

and I echo my friends comments- this is by far the busiest airspace I’ve flown a fighter in and out of.  To include when I was flying hornets out of Atsugi, Japan (edge of Tokyo) and Virginia Beach... Phoenix is the busiest.

ADSB is great- but it’s a sensor and has its weaknesses too.  Use your other sensors as well to find traffic (your eyes and ears) and combine all that information in your advanced mission computer (it sits on your shoulders), to stay safe out there.  

Thanks for speaking up!

He showed a map which highlighted your low-level routes, and it was in a pamphlet that has since been put up on the aftw.org site, it's page 4 in here:
 

http://aftw.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/FEB-19-MACA-Pamphlet.pdf

The map is too small to be very useful, imho.   Is it available somewhere in a large enough format that it can be read more easily?   

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

I installed a GDL88 in 2012 and have benefited from ADS-B I/O since then. Value right up there with GPS and sliced bread. 

[peevee]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Wherever here is, midairs, as far as I've seen, are scattered across the US.  They tend to happen in the vicinity of airports and navaids, though the latter are rapidly disappearing.  Like I said, rare as hen's teeth.  You're far more likely to blunder into inadvertent weather, run out of gas, or have a mechanical dysfunction.  

Ignorance is bliss. I'm betting you would be shocked how many targets you pass within a mile or two of and never see and therefore don't know they're there.

[steingar]

50 minutes ago, peevee said:

Ignorance is bliss. I'm betting you would be shocked how many targets you pass within a mile or two of and never see and therefore don't know they're there.

I don't give a rat's ass if something passes a mile from me.  I care if its on a collision course.  Yes, I've had close scrapes myself, we all have.  But a dead on collision is infinitely more rare.  Hence I worry about the things that are more likely to kill me, like weather.  Its called risk assessment, you  should learn some.  Goes hand in hand with critical thinking skills.

[peevee]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

I don't give a rat's ass if something passes a mile from me.  I care if its on a collision course.  Yes, I've had close scrapes myself, we all have.  But a dead on collision is infinitely more rare.  Hence I worry about the things that are more likely to kill me, like weather.  Its called risk assessment, you  should learn some.  Goes hand in hand with critical thinking skills.

Ah yes, the great risk assessor we have here. More worried about a cloud than a chunk of aluminum less than a mile closing at 400 knots. We all bow down to your superior intellect.

Edited May 3, 2019 by peevee

[steingar]

16 minutes ago, peevee said:

Ah yes, the great risk assessor we have here. More worried about a cloud than a chunk of aluminum less than a mile closing at 400 knots. We all bow down to your superior intellect.

I don'T worry about clouds, I worry about weather systems.  Flying at Mooney speeds you hit them.  Flying into deteriorating conditions has killed an order of magnitude more pilots than midair collisions, unless said collision was into terrain they couldn't see because of the weather.

[Bob - S50]

4 hours ago, steingar said:

I don't give a rat's ass if something passes a mile from me.  I care if its on a collision course.  Yes, I've had close scrapes myself, we all have.  But a dead on collision is infinitely more rare.  Hence I worry about the things that are more likely to kill me, like weather.  Its called risk assessment, you  should learn some.  Goes hand in hand with critical thinking skills.

Just keep in mind that the most difficult traffic to spot is traffic on a collision course.  If they aren't going to hit you they will be moving in the windscreen which is usually how you spot traffic.  While the big sky theory usually works, it isn't perfect.  Knowing there is traffic out there on a collision course can at least get us looking in the right direction or maybe even make us decide to alter course just a little.

The Garmin green relative vector is especially nice for determining whether traffic will get very close or not.

Try thinking of ADS-B IN as insurance.  I didn't expect to die unexpectedly for ANY reason prior to retirement, but I had life insurance anyway.  Same with homeowner's, collision, and medical insurance.  It only takes once to ruin our plans.  Do you have any of those types of insurance?

I also like ADS-B IN for checking enroute and destination weather when I'm on a long flight.

Obviously your choice though... as long as you don't want to enter ADS-B airspace after 1/1/20.

[MooneyMitch]

I’m enjoying ADS-B in feature with my Stratux RxWx/Avare/Samsung Tablet A units.  Another useful tool in the airplane! 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

I also like ADS-B IN for checking enroute and destination weather when I'm on a long flight.

Obviously your choice though... as long as you don't want to enter ADS-B airspace after 1/1/20.

My stormscope gives realtime weather, while your ADSB weather is somewhere between 15-30 minutes old when it is sent out, and even older before an update is sent.

As far as "rule airspace" goes, Charlotte is nice about entry into Bravo, but i don't go there often. ATL tells me when VFR to "stay out of the Bravo," and when passing by IFR they give me a choice between HEFIN and SINCA. They have always refused my requests for T Routes, too, sending me back to SINCA.

And my C doesn't climb well above 10,000 msl.

So remind me about the great benefits I'm missing by not equipping? Seeing how much traffic is out that that's not a conflict?

[Bob - S50]

42 minutes ago, Hank said:

My stormscope gives realtime weather, while your ADSB weather is somewhere between 15-30 minutes old when it is sent out, and even older before an update is sent.

As far as "rule airspace" goes, Charlotte is nice about entry into Bravo, but i don't go there often. ATL tells me when VFR to "stay out of the Bravo," and when passing by IFR they give me a choice between HEFIN and SINCA. They have always refused my requests for T Routes, too, sending me back to SINCA.

And my C doesn't climb well above 10,000 msl.

So remind me about the great benefits I'm missing by not equipping? Seeing how much traffic is out that that's not a conflict?

Hank,

No need to get mad.

I don't use ADS-B to avoid thunderstorms.  We are pretty lucky out here on the left coast.  We don't get many thunderstorms.  There are several things I can get from ADS-B that you cannot get from your stormscope.  I can look at developing weather hundreds of miles ahead of me.  I can check the current weather at my destination and alternate.  If I don't like the weather there I can use it to look at weather and NOTAMS at other airports.  I can use it to look at PIREPS.

You may well be able to avoid ADS-B airspace and may not need ADS-B OUT.  Lucky you.  If I didn't need it I might not install it either.  Without ADS-B we won't be able to legally operate within 30 miles of any Class B airport unless we get a case by case approval and the FAA recently said we should not expect to get that on a continuing basis.  We also won't be able to operate in, under, or over Class C airspace.  They are, however, pretty small and fairly easy to fly around.  Unless of course you want to land at an airport inside those rings.

It looks like you are from Alabama and other than Mobile and the Pensacola area to the east and MSY, BTR, and JAN to the west, there aren't a lot of chunks of airspace you'll have to avoid.

All we are saying is that having ADS-B IN for traffic is really nice for helping to put eyes on traffic that could really ruin our day.

[Bob_Belville]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

I don'T worry about clouds, I worry about weather systems.  Flying at Mooney speeds you hit them.  Flying into deteriorating conditions has killed an order of magnitude more pilots than midair collisions, unless said collision was into terrain they couldn't see because of the weather.

I don't know what your experience or ratings are... I don't worry about weather systems... most IFR pilot come to "fear" only 2 "weather" conditions: t'storm cells and ice. Staying clear of both requires experience and judgement but is not often very difficult. It's pretty much on the pilot, aided by weather briefings and on board information from weather radar, stormscope, ADS-B displays. Continued flight into IMC is a problem pretty much limited to VFR pilots.   

IMO (as a long time instrument pilot) you are foolish to ignore/minimize the risk of midair collision because the stats include more pilots run out of gas or lose control of their steed when they press on into IMC. I suspect that in the vast majority of those accident reports the bottom line is "pilot error". OTOH when a jet fighter runs over some poor soul puttering along at 100 kts or a midair occurs between a high wing and a low wing on final at an uncontrolled field it is likely that there is at least one dead pilot and his family who is completely innocent.  

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

My stormscope gives realtime weather, while your ADSB weather is somewhere between 15-30 minutes old when it is sent out, and even older before an update is sent.

As far as "rule airspace" goes, Charlotte is nice about entry into Bravo, but i don't go there often. ATL tells me when VFR to "stay out of the Bravo," and when passing by IFR they give me a choice between HEFIN and SINCA. They have always refused my requests for T Routes, too, sending me back to SINCA.

And my C doesn't climb well above 10,000 msl.

So remind me about the great benefits I'm missing by not equipping? Seeing how much traffic is out that that's not a conflict?

Hank, you don't seem to know just how much you're missing not having ADS-B in. Trust me, you'd love it.

[Guest]

We  don’t have ADS-B in Canada although we are close enough to enjoy the benefits of your fine system.  I installed active traffic after a very close call.  Thankfully mid air collisions are indeed rare, my brother was in one and survived, the other airplane suffered 2 fatals.

Clarence

[kpaul]

12 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I am surprised that the F35 does not have ADSB - I understand it is a fighter and you don't want or need it for its primary fighting mission, but I would have guessed that you do want it for easiest inclusion into the domestic airspace.  That includes for the ATC but also as you are commenting, so that the other airplanes can more easily see you as more and more we are expecting to see other airplanes on our own ADSB in systems.

I would think you would have a domestic capable ADBS transponder that you can choose to switch on or off, to use or not to use as the mission calls for.

Then you might also be surprised that most military aircraft will never be ADS-B out compliant regardless of its mission set.  The military will never spend the money and the FAA will never exclude the military from rule airspace.

Heck, a large majority of the aircraft can't fly LNAV/VNAV or LPV  and others are still using lap tops with GPS for moving maps.  Those with integrated GPS, likely are not WAAS.