Engine Oil

[Tcraft938]

First thank you for this group.  Thanks to the voluminous information available, I'm the new owner of an M20C.  So that means I have much to learn about these awesomely efficient machines.  On the flight home this week, I was amazed that it was truing 172 mph on about 9.6 gph.  Now for the questions...…   What engine oil is recommended?  My A&P likes Phillips X/C, however, he recommended I kick it around in here since there are a few engines or aircraft manufacturers where it is not recommended.  I figure it would be a good idea for me to try to get a Maintenance Manual for the 20C.  Any suggestions on other resources that would help me as well as an A&P.  While I have an A&P close by with considerable older Mooney experience, something doesn't always break when you're near that person.   Thank you for your patience and help everyone. 

[Yetti]

depends on where you live

[DXB]

If you search old threads you'll find this is a can of worms.  There are multiple right answers, a few wrong ones.  

Phillips XC 20W50 has no additives so it's worth considering adding Camguard at least for some corrosion protection unless you fly incredibly often.  I use that in the winter and switch Aeroshell 100W + Camguard when temps are reliably going to stay above 50F.  There are some facts related to Camguard, some ambiguity regarding how much it helps,  as well as some strong emotions elicited by it 

Many people use Aeroshell 15W50, which is part synthetic without issue year round.  Full synthetic is bad in airplane engines.

Probably oil selection matters much less than how much you fly for the health of your engine. 

 

 

[Bob - S50]

The Lycoming Operators manual, dated October 2005 says:

All temps:  15W-50 or 20W-50

>80F  SAE60

>60F SAE40 or 50

30 - 90F SAE40

0 - 70F SAE40, SAE30, or 20W-40

<10F SAE30 or 20W-30

We use Phillips 20W-50 with Camguard.

[Tcraft938]

18 minutes ago, DXB said:

If you search old threads you'll find this is a can of worms.  There are multiple right answers, a few wrong ones.  

Phillips XC 20W50 has no additives so it's worth considering adding Camguard at least for some corrosion protection unless you fly incredibly often.  I use that in the winter and switch Aeroshell 100W + Camguard when temps are reliably going to stay above 50F.  There are some facts related to Camguard, some ambiguity regarding how much it helps,  as well as some strong emotions elicited by it 

Many people use Aeroshell 15W50, which is part synthetic without issue year round.  Full synthetic is bad in airplane engines.

Probably oil selection matters much less than how much you fly for the health of your engine. 

 

 

I agree about the frequency of flight.  The A&P told me, "airplanes cost $ no matter what and you have no choice in that.  Your choice is do you want to put the $ into fuel or do you want to give the A&P the dollars?   Fly it often and well and you will have a lot less maintenance issues."    I will likely fly on average 8 hours a month maybe a little more in good weather.  I'm located in Rochester, NY area so the temps vary drastically.  Hangar in winter is kept at 48 degrees, so the O360 should be happy with that.  He gets very annoyed with clients that say, "it only has 18 hours on the oil, then he checks the logs and the change was 9 months ago, which usually results in a long conversation about acidity.  "25 hours or 2 years, whichever comes first is not a suitable oil change schedule".  LOL

[TTaylor]

OK, time to get out the popcorn.  The internal search engine is limited in Mooneyspace.  I like to use Google search with mooneyspace added to your search request.

Try: mooneyspace oil recommendation

 

[Bryan]

I use Phillips X/C in the winter and Aeroshell W100 in the summer.  From what I read, the oil brand does not matter it all about treatment and engine use.  I think there has been arguments that Aeroshell 15W50 will not suspend all the nasties that straight weight oil can, but other than that - Phillips multiweght is very good as well as Aeroshell's W100 and W80 oils.

[jaylw314]

11 minutes ago, Bryan said:

I use Phillips X/C in the winter and Aeroshell W100 in the summer.  From what I read, the oil brand does not matter it all about treatment and engine use.  I think there has been arguments that Aeroshell 15W50 will not suspend all the nasties that straight weight oil can, but other than that - Phillips multiweght is very good as well as Aeroshell's W100 and W80 oils.

Am I right in remembering Phillips X/C is partial synthetic and Aeroshell multi is all synthetic?

I use Aeroshell Plus (W100 Plus for an IO-360) simply because I'm too lazy to buy a cheaper oil and buy Camguard/additive separately.  Cost wise it's about the same

[DXB]

21 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Am I right in remembering Phillips X/C is partial synthetic and Aeroshell multi is all synthetic?

I use Aeroshell Plus (W100 Plus for an IO-360) simply because I'm too lazy to buy a cheaper oil and buy Camguard/additive separately.  Cost wise it's about the same

 No full synthetic on the market.  Phillips XC is not part synthetic

[Prior owner]

Aftermarket additive packages.... so much to say about those.

[M20F]

 

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Am I right in remembering Phillips X/C is partial synthetic and Aeroshell multi is all synthetic?

I use Aeroshell Plus (W100 Plus for an IO-360) simply because I'm too lazy to buy a cheaper oil and buy Camguard/additive separately.  Cost wise it's about the same

Aeroshell W100 and Philips X/C are not synthetic. Aeroshell 15W-50 is part synthetic. The additive in Aeroshell W100 Plus is the same as Lycoming LW16702 which is required for some Lycoming engines. With W100 Plus you don't have to fool around with LW 16702 which is not the same as Camguard. Camguard composition is proprietary. It might be great, or it might be unnecessary. Lot's of opinions. For sure it won't hurt anything.

For what it's worth, a flight school I know of has a fleet of C-172s with O-320's. They use Philips X/C and generally get 2200+ hrs on an engine. Flying often and frequent oil changes.

Edited April 26, 2019 by PT20J

[Guest]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

Aeroshell W100 and Philips X/C are not synthetic. Aeroshell 15W-50 is part synthetic. The additive in Aeroshell W100 Plus is the same as Lycoming LW16702 which is required for some Lycoming engines. With W100 Plus you don't have to fool around with LW 16702 which is not the same as Camguard. Camguard composition is proprietary. It might be great, or it might be unnecessary. Lot's of opinions. For sure it won't hurt anything.

For what it's worth, a flight school I know of has a fleet of C-172s with O-320's. They use Philips X/C and generally get 2200+ hrs on an engine. Flying often and frequent oil changes.

Our local flight school uses Aeroshell W-80 and W-100, no additives and are routinely seeing 3500-4000 hours between overhauls.  They used to use multi grade oils, but not anymore.

Clarence

 

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Our local flight school uses Aeroshell W-80 and W-100, no additives and are routinely seeing 3500-4000 hours between overhauls.  They used to use multi grade oils, but not anymore.

Clarence

 

I hear this occasionally, and still wonder whether there's anything to it (i.e., not running multi-viscosity oils).

I'm another one that runs Philips X/C 20W-50 in the winter and Aeroshell W100+ in the summer.   I just did an oil change and made the switch to the W100+ for the summer.

My main worry about running straight-weight in the winter is if I get stuck somewhere cold and have to start it that way.

 

[jaylw314]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:54 PM, EricJ said:

I hear this occasionally, and still wonder whether there's anything to it (i.e., not running multi-viscosity oils).

I'm another one that runs Philips X/C 20W-50 in the winter and Aeroshell W100+ in the summer.   I just did an oil change and made the switch to the W100+ for the summer.

My main worry about running straight-weight in the winter is if I get stuck somewhere cold and have to start it that way.

 

The most recent Savvy Aviation webinar, MB suggested the problem with cold is not the oil, but bearing/cylinder clearances

[M20F]

17 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

The most recent Savvy Aviation webinar, MB suggested the problem with cold is not the oil, but bearing/cylinder clearances

It is both. 

[Mooney1]

I use Aeroshell 15W50 with avblend. Change the oil every 25hrs or 3 months which ever comes first. No issues here.

[hoot777]

Hey. Happy new year and merry Christmas to all my fellow pilot friends.  I use AS15w-50 and like it year round. My oil analysis lab tells me it reacts chemically and makes chromium a little higher than normal. My overhaul shop likes w100 for anti corrosion reasons. The thread about engine use I believe is key ,the greatest aircraft maintenance engineer I ever knew long ago taught me the best thing for my engines is to fly-not just run-weekly about an hour and get the oil up to operating temperature . Kind of like aerobics for our hearts. I especially like the WD40 comment being of the engineering type. I just used some duct tape on a non moving part.

[1967 427]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:45 PM, M20Doc said:

Our local flight school uses Aeroshell W-80 and W-100, no additives and are routinely seeing 3500-4000 hours between overhauls.  They used to use multi grade oils, but not anymore.

Clarence

 

Not that I want to hijack this string, so first of all I will throw in my $0.02.  I always use Areoshell W100+.  (Now for the hijacking) About 9 years ago when I purchased my M20C, I just couldn’t let go of my little C150.  So I considered doing a lease back with one of the flight schools.  They loved my 150, but explained to me that when it reached TBO, I would have to get it overhauled if I wanted to continue the lease back.  The more I thought about it, I loved that plane and I didn’t want to subject my little 150 to the abuse of students.  It was just time to move it on to someone who would take care of it as well as it deserved.  I guess I was just surprised to hear that some schools will let their their fleet run that far past TBO.

[Jim Peace]

4 hours ago, 1967 427 said:

 

The corvette may be worth more than those two planes combined....

[1967 427]

44 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

The corvette may be worth more than those two planes combined....

Thanks for the comment and you are correct.  I could buy 2.5 M20C’s for what a clean 1967 convertible with the 427 tri-power goes for these days.  Not that I need to worry about that, this is one of my forever cars.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, 1967 427 said:

Not that I want to hijack this string, so first of all I will throw in my $0.02.  I always use Areoshell W100+.  (Now for the hijacking) About 9 years ago when I purchased my M20C, I just couldn’t let go of my little C150.  So I considered doing a lease back with one of the flight schools.  They loved my 150, but explained to me that when it reached TBO, I would have to get it overhauled if I wanted to continue the lease back.  The more I thought about it, I loved that plane and I didn’t want to subject my little 150 to the abuse of students.  It was just time to move it on to someone who would take care of it as well as it deserved.  I guess I was just surprised to hear that some schools will let their their fleet run that far past TBO.

Nice collection of toys!

Was the stance on TBO a school issue or an FAA mandate?  Transport Canada will allow commercially operated engines to run beyond the hourly and calendar TBO as long as the operator has an approved “On Condition Maintenance Program”. 
 

Clarence

[1967 427]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Was the stance on TBO a school issue or an FAA mandate?

Your guess is as goo as mine.  It may be only that schools requirement as to minimize any possible liability.  The only reason I consider it was because they approached me and they had a good sales pitch.

[carusoam]

Expect that TBOs are mentioned for part 91 GA flying... but not mandatory (for most of us, in the US)

Flight schools are probably not following the same relaxed rules that the private owner/flyers are...

But realistically, on condition with a decent maintenance plan makes the most physical sense...

Somebody mentioned having an engine out around here, in a C172 the other day... Fuel injection system challenge...

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

45 minutes ago, 1967 427 said:

Your guess is as goo as mine.  It may be only that schools requirement as to minimize any possible liability.  The only reason I consider it was because they approached me and they had a good sales pitch.

Isn’t  it a 141 requirement?