Formation Flying was an Amazing Experience!!!

[jerrodmonaghan]

If you have never had the opportunity to experience formation flying do whatever you need to do to get a right hand seat! Huge THANK YOU to Gsxrpilot and the guys who gave me the opportunity to ride along and learn more about controlling my Mooney in a few hours than I could have ever imagined. And that leads me into my next statement... I am sure someone is going to post about the “dangers” of flying in such close proximity. At first glance I can see why someone could be quick to judge but after experiencing the day I couldn’t disagree more. Everything from the preflight briefing and post briefing, to the coordinated landings, the reality is that training and learning to fly your plane at this level makes your skills honed to a level that can not be matched or learned in any other fashion.

 

Again thank you for a wonderful experience!

 

 

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[David_H]

That's a great photo.

Edited February 26, 2019 by David_H

[carusoam]

Great pic, Jerrod...

Close proximity isn’t so much the danger, as trying it without the training or the communication skills...

promoting the training... what a great idea..!

Who do you have in that formation?

Best regards,

-a-

[jerrodmonaghan]

In the photo Gsxrpilot was PIC of Lead while I rode along right seat, #2 Kiwi has Bucko right seat, Doc #3 and Matt was #4.... Sorry I don’t know everyone’s MS call signs just the names I just recalled from Saturday. It was awesome!




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[ragedracer1977]

I was supposed to do that last weekend but the weather had other plans.

in better news, the clinic was rescheduled for this weekend!

[N9201A]

Welcome to an extremely fun - and professional - group of pilots. I am always proud to fly with the Texas Wing...Keepin’ It Tight!!

[kpaul]

8 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

I am sure someone is going to post about the “dangers” of flying in such close proximity.

There will probably be some. 

My first reaction is that 4 is out of position

Formation can fun and educational if planned and conducted safely, like the folks of the Mooney Caravan you flew with.

 

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, kpaul said:

My first reaction is that 4 is out of position

Yep and discussed at length in the debrief.

[Guest]

It’s hard to tell from the picture, is there a wing over lap at the tips?

Clarence

Edited February 26, 2019 by M20Doc

[Bob_Belville]

20 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep and discussed at length in the debrief.

Which is why I confiscate all cameras and smart phones from the other pilots in my element.  

[gsxrpilot]

33 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

It’s hard to tell from the picture, is there a wing over lap at the tips?

Clarence

No, there's not. We are never close enough to overlap wingtips.

[gsxrpilot]

30 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Which is why I confiscate all cameras and smart phones from the other pilots in my element.  

In all seriousness, the debrief is as important as the brief before the flight. We take formation flying very seriously and the brief and debrief reflect that. Egos and your Colonel's Eagles are checked at the door. When the other pilots in the element say you were out of position, claiming you weren't won't win you any friends, or an invite to fly with the element again. We're all always working to get better at this and accepting criticism is key to making that happen.

Actually as a wingman, I spend much more time out of position than in position. But I'm always working to get back into proper position. It's a continual struggle for those fleeting moments of perfection.

Of those that do fly formation, most say it's the most fun type of flying we do. It also certainly makes one a much safer pilot just because of the very fine control one develops. My experience is that after learning to stay in close formation on the wing, keeping the needles centered on an ILS is child's play.

And just one of the side benefit of flying formation, is getting good inflight pictures of your airplanes.

[skydvrboy]

14 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

I am sure someone is going to post about the “dangers” of flying in such close proximity.

It is dangerous to fly in close proximity.  That's why it's so important to get proper training and maintain the disciplines you are taught.  Properly flown, there is separation in all three directions.  You are beside lead, behind lead, and below lead at all times (in fingertip).  I just don't want anyone thinking, "Hey, this is safe.  Next time I see one of my buddies up flying, I'll just zip up along side them."

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

Close proximity isn’t so much the danger, as trying it without the training or the communication skills...

Surprisingly, the communication is kept to a bare minimum and is quite simple.  Lead announces what's happening next and everyone else acknowledges.  Unless there is something out of the ordinary, that's pretty much it.

14 hours ago, jerrodmonaghan said:

If you have never had the opportunity to experience formation flying do whatever you need to do to get a right hand seat!

I concur.  Better yet, get to a formation clinic so you can get in the LEFT seat!

[Bob_Belville]

@gsxrpilot - I was kidding! Geez.

[Ned Gravel]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

It’s hard to tell from the picture, is there a wing over lap at the tips?

Clarence

Clarence:   Having done this for six years now, I can tell you that no wingtip in that picture is closer than 25 feet from any other aircraft - and more likely up to 35 feet away.

[Ned Gravel]

We should all remember the old wingman adage:  "If you are not sweating, you are probably out of position."  It really does take work.  Perhaps less so with more experience, but never so little that one can assume it's all good.  

One other piece of advice I got early on was to not fly formation alone - especially in the beginning.  The wingman has no time to watch all the instruments we normally watch in cruise.  We have constant visual of lead and are using hands and feet to maintain position:  control column, throttle, and rudders.  That's it.  We look at nothing else. 

This is most true in fingertip formation - and perhaps less so in route formation (more separation) but still not a lot less.  So having someone else watch things like MAP, temps, circuit breakers, etc is a lifesaver.  Not too worried about all the attitude instrumentation - lead's got that.  But everything else that tells me about the health of my aircraft is not really accessible to a wingman in fingertip formation, until you get a lot more experience.  Bring someone else along to do that.

And didn't we say that, given good training and practice, this would be so much easier than the FISK arrival?

[N9201A]

It’s hard to tell from the picture, is there a wing over lap at the tips?
Clarence

Overlap is verboten. Think “shoes in shoeboxes” - if the boxes never touch, the shoes never touch. Draw a 3D box around your airplane’s outer boundaries. Imagine a similar box around every other airplane. Now ensure no part of the box around you touches any other box. If the boxes never touch, the items in the box can’t either.

Those that formate regularly know that, once your skills progress, closer is easier. But this is also tempered by the above and also by the facts that we have no chutes, restricted vision (compared to a canopied aircraft), most of us aren’t current military formation pilots, and it is supposed to be fun, after all.

And it IS!!

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

@gsxrpilot - I was kidding! Geez.

I knew you were... but for the rest of the civilians... 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

No, there's not. We are never close enough to overlap wingtips.

It may be an illusion, but #2 looks closer to #1 than #3 & #4 look.

Clarence

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

It may be an illusion, but #2 looks closer to #1 than #3 & #4 look.

Clarence

That might in fact, be the case. It's pretty a pretty common situation. #2 is the easiest position in the formation. While Lead is holding a steady position, #2 is trying to match Lead. #3 in this case is trying to also match Lead, but has to do so with #2 constantly moving in an effort to match Lead. Therefore it's common, especially with #2 is relatively new to the formation, to give a little extra room. #4 should actually be flying off #3 as if #3 was Lead. 

 

[Bob - S50]

And a four ship echelon is the toughest.  I remember one day at Laughlin AFB I was a solo #4.  Coming down initial, #3 was pretty weak and was over controlling in pitch.  +/- 15' vertical.  I flew vertically off of #2 and laterally far enough out to make sure #3 didn't hit me.

[Bryan]

Maroonie!

[wiguy]

 When it comes to casual, light plane formation, Safety is paramount. There’s no reason to critique towards a ‘Blue Angel parade’ level formation. I doubt if that would be safe after a handful of hours practice anyway.

  Some level of casual ‘cruise’ position is what I’d shoot for.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, wiguy said:

 When it comes to casual, light plane formation, Safety is paramount. There’s no reason to critique towards a ‘Blue Angel parade’ level formation. I doubt if that would be safe after a handful of hours practice anyway.

  Some level of casual ‘cruise’ position is what I’d shoot for.

We'll never be in as tight as the Blue Angels. But anything closer than a mile horizontal and 1000 ft vertical is close. And safety IS paramount. So we practice and critique and practice some more. 

I'm fully convinced that I'm a much safer pilot because of all the hours of formation practice I've flown. 

This all got started with Mooneys just "casually" flying together to Oshkosh. It's called a Gaggle. And it became very obvious very quickly that the Gaggle was anything but safe. And so if this group arrival to Oshkosh was going to continue, it needed to be much more professional and include some proper training. The result is what is today the Mooney Caravan to Oshkosh. And as everyone who's participated over the last several years will say, it's the easiest and likely safest way to fly to Oshkosh.

[N9201A]

 When it comes to casual, light plane formation, Safety is paramount. There’s no reason to critique towards a ‘Blue Angel parade’ level formation. I doubt if that would be safe after a handful of hours practice anyway.
  Some level of casual ‘cruise’ position is what I’d shoot for.

For me, safety is paramount in ANY aviating.

I’ve never been in a brief where anyone critiqued on Blue Angels-type tightness, which would also violate the “no overlap” rule. I wouldn’t fly with any yahoo insisting on such overlap either. Nor have I observed or would permit any encouragement of a newbie to decrease their self-imposed comfort level.

Being in the CORRECT position, which is not the same as “close,” IS important. Being where one is supposed to be indicates (1) skill and (2) discipline. These characteristics are essential to safe formation flight...and pretty useful for ALL flying.

There are correct and safe positions for traveling as opposed to “parade.” Flying as part of a large group to and from Oshkosh, for example, is a very fun — and less risky — way to get across the country. One always has a friend around, and the whole team benefits from that mutual support.