Mooney down in Hayward CA

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

No offence but its really disgusting to start "betting" on what killed this fellow Mooney driver before he's even laid to rest. Let the NTSB professionals pass the judgement and not social media guessers.

 

-Robert

And how do you expect this to turn out? Mount Diablo moved after he took off? That the clouds and low visibility that were reported weren't there? Come on. We have seen this over and over again. What we do is risky and if you don't have a healthy respect for that risk, this stuff happens.

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

No offence but its really disgusting to start "betting" on what killed this fellow Mooney driver before he's even laid to rest. Let the NTSB professionals pass the judgement and not social media guessers.

No offense taken, and I'm sorry to be contributing to your disgust at the speculation. You and I have disagreed on this in the past, and I'm sure we will again in the future.

I just don't believe that speculation on the cause of the accident, is in anyway disrespectful towards the deceased. And I don't believe that any finding of the NTSB/FAA would change my conclusion. And even if the flight had proceeded uneventfully to a successful landing at his destination, most would likely still say it was a foolish undertaking for a student pilot given the conditions at the time.

[RobertGary1]

6 minutes ago, Marauder said:

And how do you expect this to turn out? Mount Diablo moved after he took off? That the clouds and low visibility that were reported weren't there? Come on. We have seen this over and over again. What we do is risky and if you don't have a healthy respect for that risk, this stuff happens.

Is there any need for a proper NTSB investigation then??

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

No offense taken, and I'm sorry to be contributing to your disgust at the speculation. You and I have disagreed on this in the past, and I'm sure we will again in the future.

I just don't believe that speculation on the cause of the accident, is in anyway disrespectful towards the deceased. And I don't believe that any finding of the NTSB/FAA would change my conclusion. And even if the flight had proceeded uneventfully to a successful landing at his destination, most would likely still say it was a foolish undertaking for a student pilot given the conditions at the time.

I've been around long enough to know that at least 50% of what is printed in the paper immediately after an accident is wrong. I'm not assuming the story about being a student pilot, etc. The NTSB will have accurate info.

 

-Robert

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Is there any need for a proper NTSB investigation then??

-Robert

Of course there is. If there was a mechanical failure, or a failure of navigation instruments, etc. we'd all like to know and would benefit from that knowledge. It still doesn't change the fact that it was a poor decision for a student pilot to be making that flight in those conditions, in that airplane.

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

I've been around long enough to know that at least 50% of what is printed in the paper immediately after an accident is wrong. I'm not assuming the story about being a student pilot, etc. The NTSB will have accurate info.

 

-Robert

Did you see the interview with his mentor and his dad? It's pretty clear that he was still a student pilot.

[Marauder]

4 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Is there any need for a proper NTSB investigation then??

-Robert

There will be an investigation. And just like Patrick's death, there will be a conclusion. And that conclusion won't be far off from what those of us who have been flying for decades already are surmising. Why would a student pilot since October, be flying at night, in a complex aircraft that he bought a few weeks ago, in bad weather towards a mountain? And let's not forget that a 30 year friend of the guy described him as a "psycho nut". And his father was quoted as saying "Did everything. Everything he could think of, everything he wanted to do anyway. I would say probably wasn't afraid of dying. He was afraid of not living".

I feel bad he died. I feel worse for his family.

 

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

There will be an investigation. And just like Patrick's death, there will be a conclusion. And that conclusion won't be far off from what those of us who have been flying for decades already are surmising. Why would a student pilot since October, be flying at night, in a complex aircraft that he bought a few weeks ago, in bad weather towards a mountain? And let's not forget that a 30 year friend of the guy described him as a "psycho nut". And his father was quoted as saying "Did everything. Everything he could think of, everything he wanted to do anyway. I would say probably wasn't afraid of dying. He was afraid of not living".

I feel bad he died. I feel worse for his family.

 

In my many decades of flying I've found that the final determined cause frequently differs from the guess made in the lounge by pilots who have the psychological need to disassociate themselves from the accident by saying the guy did something they wouldn't have done.

 

-Robert

[gsengle]

In my many decades of flying I've found that the final determined cause frequently differs from the guess made in the lounge by pilots who have the psychological need to disassociate themselves from the accident by saying the guy did something they wouldn't have done.
 
-Robert

That’s awfully judgmental. I’ve found very productive discussions as well, and again the point isn’t determining the cause, but exploring possible causes. In my many decades of flying and discussing that is...


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[GDGR]

43 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

No offence but its really disgusting to start "betting" on what killed this fellow Mooney driver before he's even laid to rest. Let the NTSB professionals pass the judgement and not social media guessers.

 

-Robert

I can't speak for everyone else on MS, or on this thread. However, I learn through mistakes- Mine and others. Possibly where the phrase "live and learn" comes from. 

Point is, I manage a team at work. One of my major rules is fessing up, and taking the blame. Mistakes happen. All I ask is that when it does occur, you say "It was me. I did it, and here's what I'm going to do to ensure it doesn't happen again". If the same mistake happens a second time, there's a discussion. Third... it's going to be a MAJOR discussion. 

Learn from what happened. Speculation on this occurrence, and any other will possibly raise doubt and uncertainty in who he left behind. If his tragic accident saves someone else's life, or prevents them from putting themselves in the same position down the road, then it wasn't in vain. 

 

[RobertGary1]

3 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

That’s awfully judgmental. I’ve found very productive discussions as well, and again the point isn’t determining the cause, but exploring possible causes. In my many decades of flying and discussing that is...


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You don't think its true? If don't  think you have a physiological need to disassociate the possibility this could be you, why rush to judgement? Why not just wait for the NTSB to find a correct cause? 

-Robert

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

In my many decades of flying I've found that the final determined cause frequently differs from the guess made in the lounge by pilots who have the psychological need to disassociate themselves from the accident by saying the guy did something they wouldn't have done.

 

-Robert

I'm not disassociating myself. I'm irritated that someone lost their life in a senseless way. 

[RobertGary1]

3 minutes ago, GLJA said:

I can't speak for everyone else on MS, or on this thread. However, I learn through mistakes- Mine and others. Possibly where the phrase "live and learn" comes from. 

Point is, I manage a team at work. One of my major rules is fessing up, and taking the blame. Mistakes happen. All I ask is that when it does occur, you say "It was me. I did it, and here's what I'm going to do to ensure it doesn't happen again". If the same mistake happens a second time, there's a discussion. Third... it's going to be a MAJOR discussion. 

Learn from what happened. Speculation on this occurrence, and any other will possibly raise doubt and uncertainty in who he left behind. If his tragic accident saves someone else's life, or prevents them from putting themselves in the same position down the road, then it wasn't in vain. 

 

100% agree. But do you wait for evidence or base it on initial speculation?

-Robert 

Edited February 11, 2019 by RobertGary1

[RobertGary1]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

I'm not disassociating myself. I'm irritated that someone lost their life in a senseless way. 

So based on that you can feel comfortable it wouldn't have happened to you. You feel better afterwards. I thik otherwise you'd be happy to wait for investigators.

-Robert

Edited February 11, 2019 by RobertGary1

[gsengle]

You don't think its true? If don't  think you have a physiological need to disassociate the possibility this could be you, why rush to judgement? Why not just wait for the NTSB to find a correct cause? 
-Robert

No.

I have a need to explore things that could happen to me and be in a position to either recognize threats or risks, or to game out how I would deal with an emergency once encountered. I’m a professional pilot. We don’t distance, we face the issue and then we follow our training. In the cockpit under stress is not where you want to think about a scenario for the first time.


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[gsengle]

So based on that you can feel comfortable it wouldn't have happened to you. You feel better afterwards. I thik otherwise you'd be happy to wait for investigators.
-Robert

It’s productive to discuss the ten reasons something could have happened. The actual cause is *almost* beside the point. And as facts come out it keeps the conversation productive. Once the cause is known it’s a much smaller discussion, and we all go home.


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[RobertGary1]

3 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

It’s productive to discuss the ten reasons something could have happened. The actual cause is *almost* beside the point. And as facts come out it keeps the conversation productive. Once the cause is known it’s a much smaller discussion, and we all go home.


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So why not use actual NTSB reports for that discussion? They are more accurate and have more details. Ive never been to a pilot seminar (professional or ga) in which the presenter makes a presentation based on an accident for which no investigative results have even been published. 

-Robert

[gsengle]

So why not use actual NTSB reports for that discussion? They are more accurate and have more details. Ive never been to a pilot seminar (professional or ga) in which the presenter makes a presentation based on an accident for which no investigative results have even been published. 
-Robert

I believe I explained that and only that point explicitly in my post you quoted.


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[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

So based on that you can feel comfortable it wouldn't have happened to you. You feel better afterwards.

It's one thing to speculate on decisions that lead to obvious actions. The young pilot did take off in fairly sketchy weather conditions, after dark.

It's a whole other thing to speculate on someone's motives. That the only reason we discuss this is so we can feel better about ourselves. That is truly unconscionable. You can not know anyone's motives other than your own and to think you do is very inappropriate.

I try to think of every possible action that could have resulted in this accident. And I like to discuss this with other pilots who have the wealth of experience and can think of things I wouldn't have thought of. All of this is in an effort to build up the database in my mind of all the things not to do. Or all the things to take note of.

One item of note that I'd not thought of regarding this accident, is the complex airspace overlying this area. I think to myself that if I was flying that same route, would I have been more concerned about not busting Class Bravo, that I'd forget about the rising terrain? It's useful for all of us to think about this stuff.

If it offends you, tough. Now that you're assigning nefarious motives to us, I'm a lot less concerned that you're offended.

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Robert,

Perhaps you haven’t seen them, but actual interviews of very close friends and family members have been posted online that confirm the facts surrounding this accident as well as the FAA’s own records and it is this that these guys are basing their opinions on.  I hear you about the accuracy of media reporting, but in this case we are getting the information from directly from primary sources moreso than we are the media.

I stand by my previous reference to the Latin phrase, Res Ipsa Loquitor.  Look it up if you are interested, but it applies very well here.  

Jim

I had to look it up! And I work with lawyers all the time in the work I do.

[Bob_Belville]

12 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

It’s productive to discuss the ten reasons something could have happened. The actual cause is *almost* beside the point. And as facts come out it keeps the conversation productive. Once the cause is known it’s a much smaller discussion, and we all go home.


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Timeliness is an important factor in learning. We only tune in to advice that we see as pertinent to us in some way. When a final accident report is published many months later there will be lessons to learn but many fewer potential students will get exposure to the cold facts.

ISTM, we can be respectful of the real people involved and still discuss the event. Let's be respectful of each other as well.

[kortopates]

I have always been of the opinion there is much to learn by ones attempt to understand what could have gone wrong and learning how we (or myself) might respond to avoid a similar mishap. Its not at all essential that we assume our speculation of what went wrong is entirely correct, because we are still motivated to learn from suspected possibilities - regardless of what ever the NTSB finding turns out to be. Less experienced pilots learn a great deal from the more experienced pilots as well. But its important to realize that its not about placing blame but about learning. Recall the long discussion of the older Mooney pilot whose plane went very nose up on takeoff till it stalled. That brought about a very informative discussion of how a seat may have slid back on the pilot - a great many people learned something from that about guarding themselves from pulling back on the yoke as well as taking preventative measures to avoid this. 

But as far as this specific accident goes the current facts we know now, without any speculation, just leaves me feeling angry. I take no solace in this young man's desire to live life large and enjoy his life to the fullest; even though I feel much the same. The facts are: 1) he was only a student pilot  3) the weather was not at all VFR; at the very least he went VMC into IMC; 2) he owned his plane for mere weeks. That's enough right there for me to feel angry about his negligence. I am glad no one else was hurt, but he could have taken out more people if an incident had occurred in a more populated area such as attempting to land. The learning here for us, rather than just to be pissed at his negligence, is to strive to learn to catch ourselves when we are about to push ourselves beyond what is reasonably safe, whether it be to talk to someone else more experienced or just talk to another pilot who knows us. We're human and need to learn to recognize our mistakes so we can correct them before they turn into really big mistakes like this young man's.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by kortopates

[PilotKen]

After flying since 1993 in pipers, 3 Mooney’s (67’F, 75’F, 80’231) and now a Cessna TR182 understanding accident causes is important for me. But it’s also important to my spouse who flies long trips, typically enjoys them but watches accidents closely with some worry.  This one went down 2 miles from our home so perhaps I’m jumping the gun on analysis to put her mind at ease. 

But like Paul this also makes me angry, it didn’t have to happen.

Based on available information and even what weather  was like around here Friday night leaving the ground  wouldn’t be something I would have done. I’ve delayed trips for a lot less.  All other evidence says experience or judgement wasn’t there in this case.  Pretty much everything else was a compounding factor.

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by PilotKen

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Did you see the interview with his mentor and his dad? It's pretty clear that he was still a student pilot.

The article I'm reading his father said "Flying was his passion... Chris got his pilot's license about five months ago". Could it be that an initial report that he was a student was wrong?

[orionflt]

11 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The article I'm reading his father said "Flying was his passion... Chris got his pilot's license about five months ago". Could it be that an initial report that he was a student was wrong?

 

could have meant he got his student certificate

 

Personal Information

 CHRISTOPHER LAWRENCE DE BAR 

8025 BOREN LN
GRANITE BAY CA 95746-5877
County:  PLACER
Country: USA

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Medical Information:

Medical Class: Third  Medical Date: 10/2018

BasicMed Course Date:  None   BasicMed CMEC Date:  None

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Certificates

STUDENT PILOT

Certificates Description

 

Certificate: STUDENT PILOT  
Date of Issue: 10/24/2018



Limits:
CARRYING PASSENGERS IS PROHIBITED.