Check Gear!

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

Also not a popular view but I’d like to see insurance underwriters refuse to insure a pilot who forgot the gear for a period of time. Say a year for example for the first offense and require additional training. Then if they do it again refuse them permanently. There’s no good excuse to forget the gear. The way it is now we all pay for those who don't take flying seriously.  

Future prediction...

You are going to regret typing this one day....

Recognize that you might be in a room of Mooney pilots and may have taken an odd approach to making friends...

Then let me know how one person’s GU accident affects my insurance rates...

Fixing a GU event is a pretty low cost affair compared to losing a single pilot in a stall / spin accident...

Are you aware of the number of Mooney pilots lost this year?  Are you going to suggest that they should take some time off from flying?

Sounds kind of short sighted...

Have you read up on distractions, how they work, and what causes GU accidents?

Sounds like you may not be taking flying very seriously... 

Join the discussion...

Best regards,

-a-

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

I've said this before but I feel it bears a bit of repetition.  VFR, I configure the airplane to land well before I ever hit the landing pattern.  IFR, well I dunno just yet, but I'm going to develop some sort of pattern that brings gear and flaps down before things get too busy. 

My training was for gear down at the final approach fix, but that wasn't in a Mooney and a stabilized approach in those days started at the FAF. I still cross-check the gear at the FAF, but typically extend it (and the flaps if I'm using them) well before then so that the only adjustment I need to make at the FAF is a power adjustment. There are lots of techniques and SOPs out there that work, and I'm looking forward to learning from the inputs of others.

Cheers,
Rick

[jaylw314]

7 minutes ago, Junkman said:

My training was for gear down at the final approach fix, but that wasn't in a Mooney and a stabilized approach in those days started at the FAF. I still cross-check the gear at the FAF, but typically extend it (and the flaps if I'm using them) well before then so that the only adjustment I need to make at the FAF is a power adjustment. There are lots of techniques and SOPs out there that work, and I'm looking forward to learning from the inputs of others.

Cheers,
Rick

IIRC, the AIM suggests that the segment between the IF and the FAF is generally designed and intended to be as straight as practical to give you time before the FAF to make final preparations for the approach.  I imagine that is not always true, but it's a reasonable argument to do your primary landing checklists in that segment (or comparable segment if there is no IF or FAF)

[EricJ]

7 minutes ago, Junkman said:

My training was for gear down at the final approach fix, but that wasn't in a Mooney and a stabilized approach in those days started at the FAF. I still cross-check the gear at the FAF, but typically extend it (and the flaps if I'm using them) well before then so that the only adjustment I need to make at the FAF is a power adjustment. There are lots of techniques and SOPs out there that work, and I'm looking forward to learning from the inputs of others.

Cheers,
Rick

I'm not very experienced at IFR yet, but I've been out doing approaches a lot lately learning my equipment, especially now that the autopilot is functional again.   What is becoming apparent to me is that as soon as the approach puts you reasonably on runway heading and a descent profile, it's a good time to get the gear down and start stabilizing the approach.   With LPV or anything with vertical guidance (+V) I've often been getting glidepath indication quite a ways out, and as soon as that shows up (i.e., I get glidepath guidance), I may as well get the gear down and stabilize the approach to whatever speed makes sense.  Often this is quite a bit before the FAF.  That speed might be higher further out, but at least that means that the only adjustment I make later on is speed, not basic configuration.

Anyway, I'm still learning this stuff.   I have found that it is very useful to just go shoot approaches in VFR with the equipment in various configurations just to get used to what it does.   This week I was out shooting approaches with my single G5 HSI in PFD mode, which is probably what I'd do if the AI/vacuum failed.  That was definitely a worthwhile exercise.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Junkman said:

My training was for gear down at the final approach fix, but that wasn't in a Mooney and a stabilized approach in those days started at the FAF. I still cross-check the gear at the FAF, but typically extend it (and the flaps if I'm using them) well before then so that the only adjustment I need to make at the FAF is a power adjustment. There are lots of techniques and SOPs out there that work, and I'm looking forward to learning from the inputs of others.

Cheers,
Rick

It doesn't mean everyone does it. Some do as you do, but to the extent there is anything truly standard in aviation, this appears to be one of them. What you learned in your training works in the 8-10 different retracts I've flown - Mooneys, Bonanzas, Cessna, Pipers. "Gear down to go down" was a standard for all of them. Putting down the gear at the PFAF for an ILS or LPV sends in down the glidepath at the same speed without changing anything else, not even power unless you are looking for a steeper descent on a nonprecision approach)  (hopefully  obvious - we all have to tweak for wind on the way down).  Those few I've encountered in training who don't are truly amazed when I suggest giving it a try.  Speaking with twin and jet pilots, it's a standard for them as well. You can even hear and feel it on an airline.  Flaps vary a lot more.

But whether you do it before the FAF or as part of the FAS descent is less important than that you do whatever you do consistently.

[Hank]

I also drop gear to initiate descent when IFR:  either at FAF or when the glideslope is 1-1/2 dots above the center, depending on the approach I'm doing.

When VFR, I drop flaps just before pattern entry, and drop gear on downwind abeam my intended point of landing. Straight in VFR is a little more trouble, but a mile and 1000' agl sounds good (I just have to pay more attention to my location).

[ltdoyle]

• It will never happen to me.  #1, I am much too good as a pilot,. And #2, I use a checklist.  This worked for almost 38 years.  Unfortunately,  I won't make 39 years.  In September, I was flying to get a $100 hamburger.  I almost always do a standard pattern, but on this day, there was a low cloud layer directly over the downwind path, and the runway was clear dead ahead.  I decided to do a straight in and stay out of the clouds.  I was close and fast, so I pulled power and pulled the nose up to bleed off airspeed.  Once I got to 120 mph indicated I dropped the gear.  Slowing under 100 I put full flaps.  Something did not feel right, but I did not listen to the little voice.  Short final,, 70 kts.    I  reached over and verified the gear handle was down, a habit I always do (usually 3 times).  I came in for my greaser landing and then "womp" - I was sliding down the runway on my belly.  After stopping, I wondered what the heck.  Looking around, I saw the gear breaker had tripped, and the gear only came down about. An inch.  I did not verify the gear down light, nor check the floor window.  I assure you,  that is on my checklist now.  Hope you.guys can benefit from my boo boo.

Edited December 22, 2018 by ltdoyle
Spelling

[m20kmooney]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Future prediction...

You are going to regret typing this one day....

Recognize that you might be in a room of Mooney pilots and may have taken an odd approach to making friends...

Then let me know how one person’s GU accident affects my insurance rates...

Fixing a GU event is a pretty low cost affair compared to losing a single pilot in a stall / spin accident...

Are you aware of the number of Mooney pilots lost this year?  Are you going to suggest that they should take some time off from flying?

Sounds kind of short sighted...

Have you read up on distractions, how they work, and what causes GU accidents?

Sounds like you may not be taking flying very seriously... 

Join the discussion...

Best regards,

-a-

As usual you go off on tangents! But thank you for your opinion. This discussion is about forgetting to lower the gear. And I stand by what I said: there’s no excuse for it and I can only speak about myself. I will never forget to put the gear down and I will not stall/spin. So you don’t have to worry about your insurance rates going up on my account.

Edited December 22, 2018 by m20kmooney

[Hank]

1 minute ago, m20kmooney said:

As usual you go off on tangents! This discussion is about forgetting to lower the gear. And there’s no excuse for it. 

So what's your procedure to lower the gear when tower sends you 14 nm beyond the field still almost 7000agl before turning you inbound to land? That's what almost got me, but the short final check caught the error and my landing was nice, complete with the expedited exit Tower asked for while still 7-8 nm out. 

Two things typically catch people:  distractions and non-standard approaches.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

So what's your procedure to lower the gear when tower sends you 14 nm beyond the field still almost 7000agl before turning you inbound to land? That's what almost got me, but the short final check caught the error and my landing was nice, complete with the expedited exit Tower asked for while still 7-8 nm out. 

Two things typically catch people:  distractions and non-standard approaches.

BTDT. For the 20  years I flew out of a busy Class D with three runways, I wasn't sure what a "standard" visual approach was  Non standard approaches are but should not be a catch. 

In my case the procedure for a non-standard visual approach is identical to my standard visual approach.

The "right" distractions, on the other hand... 

[carusoam]

9 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

As usual you go off on tangents! But thank you for your opinion. This discussion is about forgetting to lower the gear. And I stand by what I said: there’s no excuse for it and I can only speak about myself. I will never forget to put the gear down and I will not stall/spin. So you don’t have to worry about your insurance rates going up on my account.

Lucas,

Staying on topic...

1) M20Ks are not usually first time owner airplanes.

2) The thread’s OP is an M20K owner.

3) Something caused two M20Ks to land gear up in the prior week.

4) Assuming the pilots forgot to put the gear down probably doesn’t cover what happened.

5) So the discussion probably isn’t about forgetting, as much as it is about preventing, the GU...

6) The thread goes on covering methods MSers use to avoid GUs, under a variety high cognitive load situations...

 

Then there was this side discussion somebody brought up...

1) They have a K, so naturally they fit into the conversation...

2) They don’t have GU landings, so naturally they may have a solution that works...

3) Some people use GUMPs three times...   some people clearly state... “I will never forget to put the gear down and I will not stall/spin.”

4) Perfect!  You should have said that earlier...

5) I’m glad you joined the conversation.

6) So many people sit on the sidelines, not joining in.

 

Speaking of lowering the cost of aviation...

MS has some costs....

1) Some people donate their CFI knowledge...

2) Some people donate their mechanical knowledge...

3) Some Just donate cash... (they get the ‘supporter’ badge)

Ask yourself... what do I bring to the party?

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI, or Mechanic, I only paid the entry fee... 

Best regards,

-a-

[bob865]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 11:12 PM, m20kmooney said:

As usual you go off on tangents! But thank you for your opinion. This discussion is about forgetting to lower the gear. And I stand by what I said: there’s no excuse for it and I can only speak about myself. I will never forget to put the gear down and I will not stall/spin. So you don’t have to worry about your insurance rates going up on my account.

"I will never" and "I will not" are almost directly out of the hazardous attitudes from the FAA.  Your post reeks of Anti-Authority, Invulnerability, and Macho.  "Don't tell me I'll have a gear up accident one day."  Per their advice, here are your recomended antidotes:

1. Anti-Authority - Listen to the aviation community, they are usually right.
2. Invulnerability - It could happen to me.
3. Macho - Ignoring the data and the advice of the larger community is foolish.

I point this out to say, your post reads almost verbatum of what the FAA has identified as causeing accidents.  A bit of humility would go a long way.  We all have out opinions and they should be expressed and discussed but, in my experience, the ones who say "I will not" are the exact ones who do.  Maybe you wrote your post more harshly than intended, and maybe we are reading it more harshly than intended.  Either way, I do ask you to re-evaluate your "I will never" and "I will not" statements.

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/04_phak_ch2.pdf

See page 2-5 for my references above.

[orionflt]

I have to agree with Bob, there is never a never,

I spent 20+ years flying in the Navy and have seen my share of incidents involving very experienced crews. and we always had at least 3 people in the cockpit using checklist for everything. little distractions can be all it takes to miss something. I think I can safely say it has happened to all of us, we may not have gear up'd an airplane or had another major incident but when you reviewed your flight you realize you missed something small. In most accidents and incidents it is not one thing that is the individual cause, but several small things that compound. 

Brian

[M20F-1968]

I was taught to do the same thing every time.  If flying an instrument approach, you will always pass the final approach fix at the same altitude as the glideslope.  

If passing through the IAF, slow the airplane and stabilize the approach, get into flap speed and add 1 notch flaps.  If being vectored to the FAF,  fly a stable approach, level at the crossing altitude for FAF, add 1 notch of flaps.  If speed is correct and initial flaps in, just lowering the gear should put you about 500 fpm vertical speed down.  Then flay the remainder of the approach as you need to adding flaps on the way down.  

In this way, you put gear down at FAF every time, and the speed and vertical descent support that the gear is down.  I check that my johnson bar is down and locked by pulling down on it on final.  The P2 warning system confirms gear is down and ready for landing.  I pull on the johnson bar again to insure down and locked.  

If VFR, gear is put down abeam the numbers on downwind along with 1 notch of flaps.  Gear is checked on base and again on final by puling on the johnson bar.  Flaps added as indicated.  P2 again gives gear down for landing on final.

If flying a VFR straight in approach, I try (if not too distracting) to put in an approach so I have vertical guidance and FAF even though actually VFR.  

I have been told, many time, consistency is Key.  Do it the same way every time.

John Breda

 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, bob865 said:

"I will never" and "I will not" are almost directly out of the hazardous attitudes from the FAA.  Your post reeks of Anti-Authority, Invulnerability, and Macho.  "Don't tell me I'll have a gear up accident one day."  Per their advice, here are your recomended antidotes:

 

Google "anti authority hazardous attitude." You won't find any references other than the FAA. They made it up. 

[m20kmooney]

 

2 hours ago, bob865 said:

I do ask you to re-evaluate your "I will never" and "I will not" statements.

I do ask that you re-evaluate your conclusions because you are misunderstanding me. This discussion is about forgetting to lower the gear. And I'm telling you that I will never forget to lower my gear. I'm also tellng you that I don't want my insurance rates going up because you or someone forgot to lower theirs. There's no excuse for it. This is not anti-authority hazardous attitude and has nothing to do with your FAA reference you posted. Excuses such as “gee, I forgot the gear! I must have been distracted” is not taking flying seriously and IS a hazardous attitude. 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by m20kmooney

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

Google "anti authority hazardous attitude." You won't find any references other than the FAA. They made it up. 

ODD (oppositional, defiant disorder) is a mental disorder, AKA anti authority behavior. While some in the FAA practice it, I don't think they made it up. Sure wish we could Baker act a few, however

[midlifeflyer]

17 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

ODD (oppositional, defiant disorder) is a mental disorder, AKA anti authority behavior. While some in the FAA practice it, I don't think they made it up. Sure wish we could Baker act a few, however

Actually, the biggest problem with "hazardous attitudes" is that each of them represents the extreme end of a continuum of behaviors in which the opposite extreme is just as bad.  Maybe worse fro a safety standpoint. The opposite of "anti authority" is demonstrated by the pilots who abdicate PIC responsibilities to the perceived "authority " of ATC and end up in the weeds because they were going too fast to "turn left next taxiway"  or in the NTSB fatality reports because they flew back into the clouds partial panel after entering visual conditions because ATC vectored them. 

The problem raises it head in a less dangerous context when someone accuses someone else of having one of them, especially "anti authority." Those accusations tend to be incredibly subjective and I've seen more than one person who questions or challenges authority (both of which I believe are very positive traits) accused of being "anti authority."

[skykrawler]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Google "anti authority hazardous attitude." You won't find any references other than the FAA. They made it up. 

 

And....you have to be a 'risk taker' for it to be a hazardous characteristic.

[Yetti]

Apparently N6919V.  at Ellington

[ilovecornfields]

8 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

ODD (oppositional, defiant disorder) is a mental disorder, AKA anti authority behavior. While some in the FAA practice it, I don't think they made it up. Sure wish we could Baker act a few, however

ODD is something that is more commonly diagnosed in children than adults (although some of those traits are obviously age-appropriate).

We used to say people had “Cluster B traits” which was a nice way of saying they had a personality disorder but didn’t quite meet the DSM-IV criteria, but with the DSM-V those “cluster B” traits have been removed. I noticed many psychiatrists would defer an axis II (personality disorder) diagnosis even when it was pretty clear the person had one.

I also thought the FAA’s hazardous attitudes were a little hokey, but I get what they’re trying to do and I think they’ve been successful to some degree. I think most of us have come to realize that all models are “wrong” because they don’t actually represent “reality”, but some are quite useful (like the Bohr model of an atom- it’s clearly “wrong” but it’s useful in describing several concepts so it’s still taught today).

As far as the “I’ll never land gear up” troll goes, I think the best approach is to ignore him. James Reason wrote a great book called “Human Error” which I would highly recommend to anyone with a serious interest in the subject (he’s the one who came up with the “Swiss cheese” model). I think anyone with even a basic understanding of the concepts Mr. Reason describes would not make such a statement.

Hope everyone is enjoying the holidays. I landed today about 30 minutes before the storm arrived, wished the controller a Merry Christmas and now I get to enjoy some time with the family.

Peace.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Apparently N6919V.  at Ellington

 

Bummer.   Club rental airplane, apparently.   I hope that means it'll fly again.

https://www.coastalskies.com/aircraft-1

[bob865]

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:43 PM, m20kmooney said:

 

I do ask that you re-evaluate your conclusions because you are misunderstanding me. This discussion is about forgetting to lower the gear. And I'm telling you that I will never forget to lower my gear. I'm also tellng you that I don't want my insurance rates going up because you or someone forgot to lower theirs. There's no excuse for it. This is not anti-authority hazardous attitude and has nothing to do with your FAA reference you posted. Excuses such as “gee, I forgot the gear! I must have been distracted” is not taking flying seriously and IS a hazardous attitude. 

 

The reason I ask you to re-evaluate your "I will never" statement is I've seen it way too many times.  I work on industrial robots for a living.  These guys are big and strong and when we hit something with them, we call it a crash.  Just like cars and planes, the crashes can be minor (only minor scrapes or dings to tooling, fixtures, or parts) to major (parts, up to and incluidng the robot itself, having to be changed).  I could say everything you have said about gear on a plane about crashing a robot.  In so many regards there is no excuse for it.  But, at the end of the day, there is not a single robot tech anywhere on this planet that has not at some point in their career crashed a robot.  Motorcyclists say the same thing.  There are two types of riders, those who have been down and those who are going to go down.  Acknowledgeing that it COULD happen to you could be more of a deturrent than saying it will never happen to you.  I can assure you, every time I have had a tech tell me they would not crash, they almost always did before I could walk away. 

[m20kmooney]

On 12/24/2018 at 10:30 AM, bob865 said:

of what the FAA has identified as causeing accidents.

I think the FAA is doing a great job addressing GA safety. One area they could do better is to re-examine how they certify their so called CFI's. We have "instructors" who lack basic aerodynamic concepts teaching other pilots. This is an unprecedented crisis and the FAA is aware of it.

[mike_elliott]

7 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

One area they could do better is to re-examine how they certify their so called CFI's. We have "instructors" who lack basic aerodynamic concepts teaching other pilots. This is an unprecedented crisis and the FAA is aware of it.

Now what fun would that be? There wouldn't be someone else to blame for forgetting to lower your gear! This is the first I have heard of this unprecedented crisis, however. While aware there are some instructors that lack the ability to teach, I am also convinced the FAA does a pretty good job at screening out the applicants during the 6+ hr oral exam. Mr. Market also tends to eliminate those less than qualified to teach. We have more of a crisis of people who are not of authority and lacking expertise trying to teach on forums such as this and are in error. No you dont have to be a certificated flight instructor to opine, but one should know what they are talking about when giving advice.