Mooney down in Paramus NJ

[ragedracer1977]

What is the vent near the empennage?  I've never noticed one of those before.

 

https://daily-voice-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1,f_auto,q_auto:eco,w_640/DSCF2963_dasnwe

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Piloto said:

What are the limitations since there is none in the FAA approved FMS.

José

Here we go again!

Not a “limitation” as in the PoH or FMS section.

Limitation that the drain in your extended range STC tanks DOES NOT drain from the very bottom of the tank, therefore not ALL water and contaminates can be drained from the tank.  Most other manufacturers that I am aware of install fuel tank drains at the lowest point in the tank.

Clarence

 

[Piloto]

3 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

What is the vent near the empennage?  I've never noticed one of those before.

 

https://daily-voice-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/c_fill,dpr_1,f_auto,q_auto:eco,w_640/DSCF2963_dasnwe

The NACA vent in the tail fin is for cabin ventilation. After 1980 it replaces the old vent on top of the cabin. Very efficient in providing top face ventilation.

José

[LANCECASPER]

I've had the Monroy Long Range Tanks in three Bravos I've owned over the years and wouldn't own a Mooney without them. The range and flexibility they add is unmatched with any other mod. They turn a Turbo Mooney from a purely speed machine into a traveling machine. More fuel onboard means a lot more choices.

The long range tanks flow into the mains. I sump the long range and the mains every time, Good suggestion by @Piloto to remove the drains at every annual on any Mooney without bladders.

[Piloto]

3 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Jose, 

I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, but why did you even incorporate drains into your extended range tanks, then, if your design plan was for any water that gets in them to drain down into the main tanks where it can be drained via the OEM main tank drains?  It seems like you would have been better off just not having drains in your extended range tanks at all if that was your plan?

Jim

It is an FAA requirement for any fuel tank.

José

Edited December 10, 2018 by Piloto

[Piloto]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Here we go again!

Not a “limitation” as in the PoH or FMS section.

Limitation that the drain in your extended range STC tanks DOES NOT drain from the very bottom of the tank, therefore not ALL water and contaminates can be drained from the tank.  Most other manufacturers that I am aware of install fuel tank drains at the lowest point in the tank.

Clarence

 

Yes there is a limitation, for your M-18 you will need to install a pilot relief tube to drain all the water in your bladder. Make sure your draining device is pointing down to drain the lowest point of your bladder.

José

Edited December 10, 2018 by Piloto

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, Antares said:

What's this 2 gallons of water that can't be drained? I've got the long range tanks in my Rocket with two sump points on each wing. Is there something that I should be aware of regarding a potential hazard?

Antares,

This is a conversation that has been going on for a while and it applies to ordinary Mooney tanks as well... but, briefly...

1) There is a low spot in the corner of the tank, where the sump doesn’t technically fit... water and dirt can collect there using gravity as the driving force.

2) further up from that corner is where the sump drain actually fits.

3) further up some more is where the bottom of the fuel pick-up is.

4) Another 1/4” or so up from the bottom of the pick-up is the top of the pick-up.

5) in level flight, useable fuel is considered above the top of the opening in the fuel pick-up.  Below this level, Air can get drawn in.

6) draining the sump properly lowers the level of water safely away from the bottom of the pick-up.

7) water at the bottom of the tank can be there indefinitely, it may be drawn out as some moisture can be blended with the fuel in very small amounts, an equilibrium...

8) or an alcohol can be used as an anti-freeze to improve the water’s solubility...

9) Read the instructions on what alcohol to use and how much can be used.  It is in many Mooney POHs... Some alcohols/solvents can be hazardous to tank sealants, so don’t guess...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... not sure what water in the tanks has to do with the title of this thread, yet...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Jim Peace]

Anything on the cause yet?

[Marauder]

Anything on the cause yet?

Still a preliminary report: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20181209X33123&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=LA

What I found interesting is that the prior owner of this N number, a Piper, was involved in a fatal accident in 1964.

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=12875


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[Austintatious]

This is why I wont fly SE at night or in LIFR.

[Jim Peace]

On 4/20/2019 at 6:42 PM, Austintatious said:

This is why I wont fly SE at night or in LIFR.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can't believe nobody has jumped down your throat yet on how poor of a pilot you must be.....

I would not even want to fly an F16 at night or LIFR....Malibu, pilatus, TBM etc.....or at least not plan to do it

Experts in another thread have defined hard IFR....I wonder what they consider Low IFR...

[kpaul]

11 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can't believe nobody has jumped down your throat yet on how poor of a pilot you must be.....

I would not even want to fly an F16 at night or LIFR....Malibu, pilatus, TBM etc.....or at least not plan to do it

Experts in another thread have defined hard IFR....I wonder what they consider Low IFR...

Made a career flying a Pilatus.  It is one of the best SE aircraft around. I have flown them over the ocean, in countries that did not have ATC and in most cases no IAP.  I have flown it to ILS mins during the winter with a de-icing boot failure.  Most of my flying was at night..."we own the night!"

I will fly my Mooney at night if my mission dictates, although it rarely does.  I have had the opportunity to fly LPVs to mins in "low IFR."  I don't go looking for it but I'm not afraid to if needed. Again, only if my mission requires it.

You have to have personal minimums and stick to them.  Heck, we didn't go flying yesterday, it was severe VFR.  The catch was forecast LLWS and MOD Turbulence below 8k.  We did not see the benefit of getting beat up for 2 hours, or worse yet, finding the LLWS of departure.

[Jim Peace]

56 minutes ago, kpaul said:

Made a career flying a Pilatus.  It is one of the best SE aircraft around. I have flown them over the ocean, in countries that did not have ATC and in most cases no IAP.  I have flown it to ILS mins during the winter with a de-icing boot failure.  Most of my flying was at night..."we own the night!"

I will fly my Mooney at night if my mission dictates, although it rarely does.  I have had the opportunity to fly LPVs to mins in "low IFR."  I don't go looking for it but I'm not afraid to if needed. Again, only if my mission requires it.

You have to have personal minimums and stick to them.  Heck, we didn't go flying yesterday, it was severe VFR.  The catch was forecast LLWS and MOD Turbulence below 8k.  We did not see the benefit of getting beat up for 2 hours, or worse yet, finding the LLWS of departure.

Where do you aim the pilatus at night if the engine fails and you feel like living? Did you fly with NVG's to avoid trees and obstacles that will kill you?

[Jim Peace]

27 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I’m pretty sure that @kpaul‘s Pilatus is a U-28A.  Not a PC-12.  He’s assuming those risks to keep others safe. 

Jim

different animal then....most on here are flying for 200 dollar hamburgers.....

[kpaul]

38 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Where do you aim the pilatus at night if the engine fails and you feel like living? Did you fly with NVG's to avoid trees and obstacles that will kill you?

It is fortunate that the mill on the Pilatus very rarely fails.  In fact the units I flew with have surpassed 50,000 hours on the fleet without a single engine failure. Yes, we flew with NVGs, however not always, and NVGs don't magically change night into day, especially if there is weather and or limited light.  We also used out twin GNS430s and practiced 1000's of simulated engine out patterns.  There is always the chance that things don't work out and you may be forced to set up a glide, ride it in and hope for the best.  There were days that due to the mission my personal minimums were "I hope I make it home tonight"  other days, I would laugh at the suggestion of evening walking out to the plane.  You have to balance the mission and the risks.   

[kpaul]

1 minute ago, Jim Peace said:

different animal then....most on here are flying for 200 dollar hamburgers.....

Can't get a $200 hamburger in a Pilatus, unless you just taxi from the hangar to the restaurant on the field.

[kpaul]

32 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I’m pretty sure that @kpaul‘s Pilatus is a U-28A.  Not a PC-12.  He’s assuming those risks to keep others safe. 

Jim

Actually, I flew both the PC-12 and it's modified sister.  The PC-12 is a sweet ride, the U-28A is a draggy, overweight pig, but she can sure get the job done.

[Austintatious]

3 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can't believe nobody has jumped down your throat yet on how poor of a pilot you must be.....

I would not even want to fly an F16 at night or LIFR....Malibu, pilatus, TBM etc.....or at least not plan to do it

Experts in another thread have defined hard IFR....I wonder what they consider Low IFR...

Ohh dont you worry, I have already been berated for spouting such blasphemy!  Of course the fact that I have been in a major accident due to power plant failure in a SE aircraft shouldn't have any bearing on how I choose to operate.  It is easy to dismiss the failures that "cant/wont/unlikely to  happen to me"

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Austintatious

[carusoam]

Austin,

you need to add something memorable to your avatar....

Jim’s is going to be a pic of a lawnmower. Probably mowing at night....

Best regards,

-a-

[TCC]

It ...There were days that due to the mission my personal minimums were "I hope I make it home tonight"  other days, I would laugh at the suggestion of evening walking out to the plane.  You have to balance the mission and the risks.   

Did you ever fly with Shorty Bone? AFRES WSO; we were ALOs together from ‘10-13.

[kpaul]

8 hours ago, TCC said:

Did you ever fly with Shorty Bone? AFRES WSO; we were ALOs together from ‘10-13.
 

No, but there are three squadrons so it was easy to never run into folks from the other units.

[Ragsf15e]

On 4/21/2019 at 7:28 PM, Austintatious said:

Ohh dont you worry, I have already been berated for spouting such blasphemy!  Of course the fact that I have been in a major accident due to power plant failure in a SE aircraft shouldn't have any bearing on how I choose to operate.  It is easy to dismiss the failures that "cant/wont/unlikely to  happen to me"

 

Well then you’re good!! Go fly at night in lifr, you already had your engine issue! 

[Austintatious]

haha... Well, actually, I have experienced 2 turbine engine failures.  The other was in a Citation and was very uneventful... Temps jsut started climbing and climbing even with power reductions... eventually the engine was only producing 75ish percent of power... There was however a second engine so it was a non event.

I was on about my 4th flight in a 152 when it blew a jug at about 4-500 feet after takeoff... instructor took the wheel and we almost didn't make it back to the field.

I currently own what I believe to be one of the most complicated aircraft on the planet and it has a snowmobile engine!  I EXPECT every engine I sit behind ( or in front of) to fail and I operate accordingly!

Edited April 24, 2019 by Austintatious

[carusoam]

Good plan, but...

Sowmobile engines are what the Rotax guys have... and Skidoos...

Jim assures us that we are all flying behind 50 year old lawn mower technology...

Lawn mowers aren’t no snowmobile...

 

losing a cylinder in a fully loaded C152... is a pretty precarious shortage of hp....

Losing a cylinder in M20C... isn’t very fun either... but, we are starting with a whole bigger pile of excess HP to maintain altitude with...

180hp vs. 108hp...

It really helps to have an engine monitor to support the decision to land straight ahead, or head back to the field...

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

On 4/21/2019 at 10:34 PM, carusoam said:

Jim’s is going to be a pic of a lawnmower. Probably mowing at night....

Best regards

took me over 4 years to notice this....I am trying out different ones now