Electroair EIS with Shower of Sparks

[MoonFlyer68]

Hello Mooneyspace.  I am the owner of a 1968 M20F with the standard IO-360 and shower of sparks ignition system.  I am very much considering the Electroair Electronic Ignition System for my engine.  Using the search function I have found a number of people have made this change, but there are a couple of questions that were never really answered.  The first of which is which Mag did you replace?  Electroair says you can replace either one but “recommends” keeping the Shower of Sparks because without it you would lose the ability to ever hand start (Not that I would ever want to do that).  The second question involves the Electroair ignition switch.  If you kept the Shower of Sparks system how did that integrate with the new push-button starting switch?  And lastly, if you kept the Shower of Sparks system would that then mean you could do a normal battery start from that system rather than the EIS if you ever had the need to by turning the EIS switch off during start?

Thanks for any input.

[Andy95W]

I get what they're saying, but I would definitely replace the left magneto.

1.) You'll get more in resale for your left mag.

2.) You'll get the high energy Electroair spark for starting- which will help a lot of your hot-start issues.

3.) You'll pay a lot less for right magneto overhauls and 500 hour inspections than for the left mag.

[1964-M20E]

If you can wait a while look into the Surefly they are close to having their ignitions STC'd (hopefully by the end of next year just my dreams) or Emag, which I like even better, but they seem to be much further behind on the STC process.

[carusoam]

Have no fear of eliminating hand starts...

You are already having a bad day if you have gotten that far.  Don’t add to it...

Best regards,

-a-

[MoonFlyer68]

4 hours ago, Andy95W said:

I get what they're saying, but I would definitely replace the left magneto.

1.) You'll get more in resale for your left mag.

2.) You'll get the high energy Electroair spark for starting- which will help a lot of your hot-start issues.

3.) You'll pay a lot less for right magneto overhauls and 500 hour inspections than for the left mag.

Andy,

Some very good points that I had not thought of.  I am sure that the continued maintenance for the direct drive mag would be a lot less than the shower of sparks system.

[MoonFlyer68]

31 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Have no fear of eliminating hand starts...

You are already having a bad day if you have gotten that far.  Don’t add to it...

Best regards,

-a-

My wife is in full agreement with you.  There is no way we are planning to ever hand crank this plane.  And so if that is the only thing I loose by replacing the Shower of Sparks it is not a real loss at all.

[DualRatedFlyer]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Have no fear of eliminating hand starts...

You are already having a bad day if you have gotten that far.  Don’t add to it...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[N201MKTurbo]

FWIW, 

I hand propped my old M20F quite a few times, usually when I forgot to turn off the master. It was pretty easy to start.

I have not been able to hand prop my M20J with the impulse coupling. Tried a few times, ended up breathless and sweaty with no start.

[1964-M20E]

46 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

FWIW, 

I hand propped my old M20F quite a few times, usually when I forgot to turn off the master. It was pretty easy to start.

I have not been able to hand prop my M20J with the impulse coupling. Tried a few times, ended up breathless and sweaty with no start.

Braver than me I have no desire to hand prop anything but a COX 0.049 engine.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Braver than me I have no desire to hand prop anything but a COX 0.049 engine.

Those things can put a nasty gash on your index finger....

[Andy95W]

41 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Those things can put a nasty gash on your index finger....

If you don't have pictures, Rich, it never happened. 

[Ragsf15e]

I’m sure you can get a nice electroair installation, but I fly it at work In a C-172 and would not put it on my mooney.  The new mag switches/key setup is obtrusive, there’s all kinds of added wiring and little boxes in front and behind firewall, and our IA who I trust very much with my own plane says it eats the spark plugs.  Now, on the bright side, it starts very easy, and the mag drop is almost imperceptible.

One thing that really bugs me, and it may just be the installation we have, when you turn off and take out the key, it’s very easy to leave the two mag switches on.  I know you should treat every prop like a loaded gun, but I had a student move the prop over to attach tow bar right as I yelled STOP! and showed her that we both missed that checklist step...

 I’m gonna do Surefly. After @Marauder

Edited December 8, 2018 by Ragsf15e

[carusoam]

Interesting that the electronic ignition eats spark plugs...

The mag based ignition, sparks on every stroke. One for the power stroke, the other extra one happens on the exhaust stroke... (so I believe)

Wondering If the electronic mag skips the extra spark, and why it is eating spark plugs?

Must be time to get a modern spark plug to match the modern ignition... platinum anyone?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[goterminal120]

A friend just did his first flight yesterday after electroair install. Ran great, but would not start without mag. The EI requires 50 rpm to come alive, apparently his starter couldn’t get it.

 FYI the surefly is not apples to apples to electroair. Surefly has no advance, runs just like a mag but with no points. 

As far as eating spark plugs, I don’t believe it. If your using the proper gap, they shouldn’t wear any more than normal. These things still aren’t pushing the power of auto ignitions and they go for thousands of hours.

[Andy95W]

8 minutes ago, goterminal120 said:

A friend just did his first flight yesterday after electroair install. Ran great, but would not start without mag. The EI requires 50 rpm to come alive, apparently his starter couldn’t get it.

 

That's interesting, and I don't know the answer, but the ElectroAir guys say that it starts the engine better than impulse couplings or Shower of Sparks-  hopefully someone around here can chime in or understands why your friend's doesn't work as advertised.

[ArtVandelay]

 FYI the surefly is not apples to apples to electroair. Surefly has no advance, runs just like a mag but with no points. 

Sure it does, from their website:

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, goterminal120 said:

A friend just did his first flight yesterday after electroair install. Ran great, but would not start without mag. The EI requires 50 rpm to come alive, apparently his starter couldn’t get it.

 FYI the surefly is not apples to apples to electroair. Surefly has no advance, runs just like a mag but with no points. 

As far as eating spark plugs, I don’t believe it. If your using the proper gap, they shouldn’t wear any more than normal. These things still aren’t pushing the power of auto ignitions and they go for thousands of hours.

Not only does it advance timing below ~25” MP, Surefly sets timing at TDC at start for better starts.

with electroair you need their plugs/wires too.  Our C-172 does start/run really nice with electroair...

[takair]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Not only does it advance timing below ~25” MP, Surefly sets timing at TDC at start for better starts.

with electroair you need their plugs/wires too.  Our C-172 does start/run really nice with electroair...

Have been looking at Surefly myself.  One thing I am wondering about, it looks like it is always externally excited, so I suspect you can only replace one of the mags, unless we had dual electronics.  Anybody know if that is true?

[aviatoreb]

Surefly sure looks pretty nice.  I corresponded with them around Oshkosh 18 time...  They said they were about 18 months out.

If one wants to go surefly it might well pay to buy one of their discounted pre-certification units.

I like surefly more than electro air since the install looks much simpler.  But it still requires external power source, correct?

But e-mag is clearly the best concept since it is the one that has a built in mini-alternator so it does not require ships power.  Therefore a) it can run even if there is a complete failure of ships electrical power. b) the install is even easier since it does not require wiring to give it ships power.

...as I understand.

I have been wanting electronic ignition for several years and almost pulled the trigger on electro-air a few years ago, but changed my mind since I prefer elegant solutions.  I want to wait for  e mags but I may well get surefly if it is available in a year or so.

[goterminal120]

That is odd about the advance on the surefly. When I talked to them at OshKosh I got the impression it was a fixed timing other than retarding for start.

As far as sterting on the electroair, I never said it couldn’t do it, simply relayed an experience. His starter couldn’t spin up fast enough. That being said, take one that can be started with it and use a not fully charged battery or on a butt cold day. I can’t say for sure but you may want that shower of sparks or impulse coupler. Results may vary

[1964-M20E]

On 12/8/2018 at 8:54 AM, aviatoreb said:

Surefly sure looks pretty nice.  I corresponded with them around Oshkosh 18 time...  They said they were about 18 months out.

If one wants to go surefly it might well pay to buy one of their discounted pre-certification units.

I like surefly more than electro air since the install looks much simpler.  But it still requires external power source, correct?

But e-mag is clearly the best concept since it is the one that has a built in mini-alternator so it does not require ships power.  Therefore a) it can run even if there is a complete failure of ships electrical power. b) the install is even easier since it does not require wiring to give it ships power.

...as I understand.

I have been wanting electronic ignition for several years and almost pulled the trigger on electro-air a few years ago, but changed my mind since I prefer elegant solutions.  I want to wait for  e mags but I may well get surefly if it is available in a year or so.

E-mag requires an external power source and the built in alternator is for the rare times when you lose ship power.  I think E-mag has the best solution but they do need to get in gear for approvals.  If the FAA would let me I'd put 2 E-mags on my plane yesterday.

 

 

[MoonFlyer68]

1 hour ago, goterminal120 said:

That is odd about the advance on the surefly. When I talked to them at OshKosh I got the impression it was a fixed timing other than retarding for start.

As far as sterting on the electroair, I never said it couldn’t do it, simply relayed an experience. His starter couldn’t spin up fast enough. That being said, take one that can be started with it and use a not fully charged battery or on a butt cold day. I can’t say for sure but you may want that shower of sparks or impulse coupler. Results may vary

I was also under the impression that the Surefly did not adjust timing during flight, but as noted above the website clearly shows for a non-turbo aircraft it actually does.  That fact makes this more of an "apples to apples" conversation.  Surefly certainly seems to have a huge advantage with ease of installation but is still waiting for final certification.  Electroair has been certified for a few years already but costs more and is more complex installation.  As of now, I think I am more inclined to wait for the Surefly system.