Rocket engineering support update

[M016576]

This is a heads up for any rocket engineering STC owners that may be curious if they currently have a “supported” STC.

my Missile is in for annual- and the MSC found a crack in the exhaust stack- so they removed it.  After they removed the stack- they found that the muffler was completely trashed on the inside... 

uh oh.  

So I was more than a bit worried that the customs fabricated exhaust system would no longer be supported by rocket- particularly because they only did 43 or so rocket conversions... 

turns out my worries were unfounded.  We boxed up the exhaust and sent it to rocket- the new system should be back early next week- totally rebuilt by rocket- and in brand new condition.  

Happy to know that Rocket continues to stand by their STC!

[Shadrach]

Glad to know that they've no orphaned the fleet.  My guess is that it is used in additional applications.  Another option would have been Dawly, who likely would have Overhauled it for well under $1000.

[Cody Stallings]

I’m very glad to see this post, an to see the outcome with your Muffler.

As I am a new Rocket driver, that has been curious about support with this Conversion.

[Yooper Rocketman]

31 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

  Another option would have been Dawly, who likely would have Overhauled it for well under $1000.

I have been a BIG fan of Dawley, but they are not the same company as far as service.  I've heard a bunch of horror stories getting work done in a timely manner.  

Good News on Rocket Engineering.  They did some tech support for my FBO during my engine OH, free!!

Tom

[Cody Stallings]

Not Trying to HiJack This Topic, But how does one Figure out:

How many Missles were Converted?

How many Rockets were Converted?

How many Of both are still Flying?

What Number Conversion would Ser#

25-1011 be?

[LSKIDMORE]

My experience with Rocket Engineering has also been very positive over the few years I've been a Missile owner.  Last year at annual some cracks were found in the exhaust.  The Exhaust was removed and shipped to Rocket Engineering.  It was overhauled by them, shipped back and then reinstalled.  No big deal and they were easy to work with. 

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, LSKIDMORE said:

My experience with Rocket Engineering has also been very positive over the few years I've been a Missile owner.  Last year at annual some cracks were found in the exhaust.  The Exhaust was removed and shipped to Rocket Engineering.  It was overhauled by them, shipped back and then reinstalled.  No big deal and they were easy to work with. 

About 8 years ago - I had a similar experience.  When my exhaust needed overhaul, not only did they overhaul it but between the time it had been originally installed and the current version they had improved the design with thicker more robust tubes and weld and that is what they sent back to me. 

That plus lots of good advice over the years and I am convinced they are an absolutely top notch company.  During the down era of Mooney factory, I was confident that nonetheless that my rocket was well supported by rocket engineering.

I would buy a rocket product any time - including up their product line (turbo props) if I had the money.

[carusoam]

Rocket Engineering is quite the operation...

Read their STC documents to see the amount of extra work they put into their conversion projects...

Their performance charts are as accurate as any modern airplane manufacturer...

They may not be selling Missile or Rocket projects anymore... but they still have significant business in other areas... and still supporting past projects...

Either way... Incredibly expensive to afford brand new....

Great pireps!

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I have been a BIG fan of Dawley, but they are not the same company as far as service.  I've heard a bunch of horror stories getting work done in a timely manner.  

Good News on Rocket Engineering.  They did some tech support for my FBO during my engine OH, free!!

Tom

Tom, Has something changed at Dawley?  Your comment seems to suggest that they are not the company they once were.  It's been about ten years since I used them personally but my experience was that they've always delivered high quality work in a timely manner for a surprisingly reasonable price.

[Yooper Rocketman]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Tom, Has something changed at Dawley?  Your comment seems to suggest that they are not the company they once were.  It's been about ten years since I used them personally but my experience was that they've always delivered high quality work in a timely manner for a surprisingly reasonable price.

Not sure if it's ownership or staff.  But, my local FBO was a huge fan of them for many years.  After sending several exhaust systems down there a few years ago and having them take 3 months to complete, they no longer use them.  They said they checked with a few other shops in the region who reported the same issue.

Tom

[MIm20c]

14 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Glad to know that they've no orphaned the fleet.  My guess is that it is used in additional applications.  Another option would have been Dawly, who likely would have Overhauled it for well under $1000.

From the quotes I received lately from Dawley would suggest getting a stack and full muffler overhaul for well under 1k would be wishful thinking. 

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

From the quotes I received lately from Dawley would suggest getting a stack and full muffler overhaul for well under 1k would be wishful thinking. 

Wow.  IIRC, in 2008 the total cost to OH the exhaust on my IO360 was just over $500. Admittedly, the core was in good shape. 

[Cody Stallings]

Strange.

After talking to Patrick at Rocket, I was told they have no record of converting my plane when given the current N#.

How would one go about seeing if it had a different N# when it was converted?

Logbooks show it being 252A from 1986 to Now

[M016576]

28 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

Strange.

After talking to Patrick at Rocket, I was told they have no record of converting my plane when given the current N#.

How would one go about seeing if it had a different N# when it was converted?

Logbooks show it being 252A from 1986 to Now

I am pretty sure that some missile and rocket conversions were performed by shops other than Rocket Engineering itself.  I think people would buy the stc and another shop would perform the conversion.  

In my missile stc paperwork (which is quite substantial- basically a whole new POH worth of data), it shows the old N number, then the changed N number (switched it from a “201” to a “301”.. go figure).  Regardless- Rocket should at least have a record of the STC being sold and presumably applied to your aircraft.  Maybe the actual conversion was done somewhere else?

as for numbers-  I think only rocket knows for sure, but from what I’ve gathered here on this board- about 45 missile conversions and 150-200 rocket conversions.  I think when the rocket conversion first became available, several years worth of 231’s were just coming up on their overhaul... perfect time to market a bigger, faster mooney!  The missile didn’t catch on quite as well... strange because the Ovation seems to be very popular, and it has near identical performance characteristics (and in some ways, the O is inferior to the missile, IMO).  I think the reason is probably due to the relative cost of the upgrade/stc in relation to an overhaul on the engine at the time...  or it might have been strictly a performance thing- the rocket puts up a bigger performance delta between it and the stock 231/252 at altitude than the missile and a stock J does at its normal cruise altitudes. Finally, and this probably has much to do with it- the initial missile stc only certified the maximum gross weight up to 2900lbs... so useful load was cut down significantly.  Eventually, Rocket did more testing, changed out some landing gear components and increased the max gross weight to 3200lbs- which gives the missle one of the highest useful loads of all the Mooney’s out there (mine has TKS and still sports 1020lbs useful... most other missiles are over 1100lbs... the M20S’s are higher... Parker’s oldencore conversion... and a very few M20F’s seem to be able to break the 1100 mark) .  Maybe it was too late to “save the mod” by the time they did the gross weight increase.  Hard to say- but the rockets certainly outsold the missiles.

Edited February 24, 2019 by M016576

[Steve2]

On 11/11/2018 at 8:26 AM, Yooper Rocketman said:

Not sure if it's ownership or staff.  But, my local FBO was a huge fan of them for many years.  After sending several exhaust systems down there a few years ago and having them take 3 months to complete, they no longer use them.  They said they checked with a few other shops in the region who reported the same issue.

Tom

I had the same issue with Dawley, at one time good pricing and turnaround - then overnight repeatedly taking forever to complete work along with missed timelines.

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/10/2018 at 8:21 PM, Cody Stallings said:

What Number Conversion would Ser#

25-1011 be?

That's your Mooney Serial number. It's the 11th 252 made. The serial numbers for 252's started at 25-1000.  (The Mooney 231's ran from serial number 25-0001 to 25-0889.)

[Cody Stallings]

2 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

That's your Mooney Serial number. It's the 11th 252 made. The serial numbers for 252's started at 25-1000.  (The Mooney 231's ran from serial number 25-0001 to 25-0889.)

Right.

I was hoping to find out which Conversion number my plane was by using the Serial Number, cause there is no record of it being converted under its N#.

The same Registration Number it was born with.

[LANCECASPER]

If you contact Rocket Engineering I'm sure they can tell you. https://rocketengineering.com/

 

[Cody Stallings]

3 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you contact Rocket Engineering I'm sure they can tell you. https://rocketengineering.com/

 

I already have, No Joy.

They have looked through their files, they say they have no record of it ever being at Rocket.

[LANCECASPER]

4 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

I already have, No Joy.

They have looked through their files, they say they have no record of it ever being at Rocket.

Was there a 337 filed on it?

[Cody Stallings]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Was there a 337 filed on it?

Yes Sir, All of it.

[LANCECASPER]

I bet with the info you have there, especially the date, Rocket could figure it out  . . .  if they want to take the time to do it^.

There's a Floyd W. Gaston now in his 80's that lives in Spokane - and since Rocket Engineering is in Spokane it must have been done right there at Rocket rather than in the field.

 

[Cody Stallings]

I have supplied the date.

I personally think it’s a time thing.

Ya know, I probably wouldn’t wanna dig up paperwork from 96 if a guy called with a question, But I would do it anyway.

The info probably isn’t a point an click away, I’m sure it would require digging in a file cabinet.

I will figure it out some day.

[John Car]

On 2/24/2019 at 1:02 AM, M016576 said:

I am pretty sure that some missile and rocket conversions were performed by shops other than Rocket Engineering itself.  I think people would buy the stc and another shop would perform the conversion.  

In my missile stc paperwork (which is quite substantial- basically a whole new POH worth of data), it shows the old N number, then the changed N number (switched it from a “201” to a “301”.. go figure).  Regardless- Rocket should at least have a record of the STC being sold and presumably applied to your aircraft.  Maybe the actual conversion was done somewhere else?

as for numbers-  I think only rocket knows for sure, but from what I’ve gathered here on this board- about 45 missile conversions and 150-200 rocket conversions.  I think when the rocket conversion first became available, several years worth of 231’s were just coming up on their overhaul... perfect time to market a bigger, faster mooney!  The missile didn’t catch on quite as well... strange because the Ovation seems to be very popular, and it has near identical performance characteristics (and in some ways, the O is inferior to the missile, IMO).  I think the reason is probably due to the relative cost of the upgrade/stc in relation to an overhaul on the engine at the time...  or it might have been strictly a performance thing- the rocket puts up a bigger performance delta between it and the stock 231/252 at altitude than the missile and a stock J does at its normal cruise altitudes. Finally, and this probably has much to do with it- the initial missile stc only certified the maximum gross weight up to 2900lbs... so useful load was cut down significantly.  Eventually, Rocket did more testing, changed out some landing gear components and increased the max gross weight to 3200lbs- which gives the missle one of the highest useful loads of all the Mooney’s out there (mine has TKS and still sports 1020lbs useful... most other missiles are over 1100lbs... the M20S’s are higher... Parker’s oldencore conversion... and a very few M20F’s seem to be able to break the 1100 mark) .  Maybe it was too late to “save the mod” by the time they did the gross weight increase.  Hard to say- but the rockets certainly outsold the missiles.

Can you post the POH updates from your conversion to the download forum?  How do you like your missle so far?

[Bravoman]

On 2/25/2019 at 4:12 PM, Cody Stallings said:

I have supplied the date.

I personally think it’s a time thing.

Ya know, I probably wouldn’t wanna dig up paperwork from 96 if a guy called with a question, But I would do it anyway.

The info probably isn’t a point an click away, I’m sure it would require digging in a file cabinet.

I will figure it out some day.

Call Rocket back and ask if Mr Gaston was ever in their employ. That should solve the question.