What’s your short field landing procedure?

[Niko182]

9 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Level flight equals 1g. Using 1G as a ref, unloading the wing means anything less than 1G as in during the descent.  Who said anything about a stable descent profile?  I shoot for 1.2XVso as I level the wings on final. I hold that until short final at which point power is off and pitch is set to slow to 1.1Vso. the aircraft is pitched down slightly to hold  1.1Vso power off until the flare is initiated about 1 wingspan (beginning of ground effect) above the touchdown zone. The Stall horn will sound through the flare and the yoke should end up at full aft or nearly full aft during the descent .  Again it is not a comfortable procedure, for most. 

Mooneys are more challenging to land short because the already slick airframe is low to the ground and very much subject to ground effect.  Any excess energy at arrival is magnified by the additional lift and reduced drag in ground effect. It would be interesting to see how slow the airplane will fly in ground effect. I may try it out just for S&Gs some day.

A bit about power vs pitch.  The only time power need be added to any approach is if there is not sufficient energy to approach and flare.  That does not mean its not a good idea to add power in order to give passengers the smoothest consistent ride possible, that's a good thing. However, that extra energy will need to be contended with on arrival. Most airports have plenty of runway for a pilot to contend with that excess energy.  But we are talking short fields. The goal is to get down and stopped in th shortest distance possible. 2000ft does not leave a lot of margin but getting down below 1800ft there's little room for slop.  These are not strips where I take non flying passengers. 

During descent, you're still at 1G. gravity is an acceleration. not a speed. when entering descend, you go to less than 1G, but when the rate of decent becomes constant after 3 to 5 seconds, you're back at 1G.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Level flight equals 1g. Using 1G as a ref, unloading the wing means anything less than 1G as in during the descent.  Who said anything about a stable descent profile?  I shoot for 1.2XVso as I level the wings on final. I hold that until short final at which point power is off and pitch is set to slow to 1.1Vso. the aircraft is pitched down slightly to hold  1.1Vso power off until the flare is initiated about 1 wingspan (beginning of ground effect) above the touchdown zone. The Stall horn will sound through the flare and the yoke should end up at full aft or nearly full aft during the descent .  Again it is not a comfortable procedure, for most. 

Mooneys are more challenging to land short because the already slick airframe is low to the ground and very much subject to ground effect.  Any excess energy at arrival is magnified by the additional lift and reduced drag in ground effect. It would be interesting to see how slow the airplane will fly in ground effect. I may try it out just for S&Gs some day.

A bit about power vs pitch.  The only time power need be added to any approach is if there is not sufficient energy to approach and flare.  That does not mean its not a good idea to add power in order to give passengers the smoothest consistent ride possible, that's a good thing. However, that extra energy will need to be contended with on arrival. Most airports have plenty of runway for a pilot to contend with that excess energy.  But we are talking short fields. The goal is to get down and stopped in th shortest distance possible. 2000ft does not leave a lot of margin but getting down below 1800ft there's little room for slop.  These are not strips where I take non flying passengers. 

Oh, ok, I just couldn't quite see what you were saying.  That does, in fact, sound a lot like what @N201MKTurbo mentioned earlier too

[Robert Sailor]

It’s great when you have larger airports around you but in my neck of the woods we have 2 airports we use all the time, one is 2000 feet and the other is 1500 feet both paved. On the shorter one you don’t want to leave any asphalt behind you because there is water on both ends. In my mind you should be able to easily handle this size of runway and of course it does require some practice but one day you may lose an engine and that little extra  skill will pay off in spades. 

[Shadrach]

22 hours ago, Niko182 said:

During descent, you're still at 1G. gravity is an acceleration. not a speed. when entering descend, you go to less than 1G, but when the rate of decent becomes constant after 3 to 5 seconds, you're back at 1G.

Indeed the above statement is correct...I was not suggesting that if you were to trim the plane for 500fpm descent that you would maintain something less than one G once a stable descent rate has been established. I was asked what I meant by unloading the wing in the context of my explanation of a short field landing.  Perhaps I should have been more clear. I fly a stabilized final at 1.2 Vso until I can approximate how much energy is needed to arrive above and ahead of my TDZ on speed. I then slow to 1.1 Vso power off at the time I deem appropriate; I then use pitch to maintain that target speed.  That part of the maneuverer is typically less than 100' from the flare. The aircraft is most definitely in reduced G state as it takes a steep approach to maintain flying speed (again I'm talking approach angle, not pitch angle which will look nearly flat).  The flare which arrests the descent will culminate in slightly more than a 1G (for the same reason you stated above) and an AOA that produces enough induced drag to slow the airplane to stall speed, ground effect cushions the touchdown. If lucky enough to get everything right, there is no float at touch down.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

On 10/23/2018 at 2:51 AM, Niko182 said:

72 to 71 knots on final. once past obstacles, get low and flare about 20ft before the runway. The moment I get past the beginning of the runway I get about 5 to 6 inches over the ground and pull the flaps. plants the wheel and gets me on the ground and allows me to use right under 1000ft of total runway. I only use this procedure on really short strips, so strips around 2000ft long. Mooneys can land really short, but it is extremely critical with speed.

A couple of things I would say here:

1) 72 to 71Kts is slightly more than 1.2 Vso at the M20S MGW of 3200lbs. That is not a short field approach speed.

2) At a more likely scenario of say empty weight of 2250lbs, a pilot @ 200lb, half tanks 40gl @ 240lbs and 25lbs of misc crap in the baggage compartment 71 to 72 knots is now 1.35Vso.  That is definitely not a short field approach speed. 65kts would be 1.2Vso and make for low drama landings with 100ft or so of float.

3) Pulling flaps at 20 ft or 2 ft above the runway is poor technique. It's a band-aid for being too fast. Having arrived at touch down with too much speed the pilot then dumps flaps to bring stall speed closer to his too fast arrival. sub optimal...

You're not the first to advocate the dive and dump method.  There's another member on this board whose opinions I respect a great deal with the exception of when he extols the virtues of the "ground effect flap dump" or his relief tube modification.  

Edited October 24, 2018 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Oh, ok, I just couldn't quite see what you were saying.  That does, in fact, sound a lot like what @N201MKTurbo mentioned earlier too

Yup, probably the same. I am just not into the whole brevity thing...

Edited October 24, 2018 by Shadrach

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

A couple of things I would say here:

1) 72 to 71Kts is slightly more than 1.2 Vso at the M20S MGW of 3200lbs. That is not a short field approach speed.

2) At a more likely scenario of say empty weight of 2250lbs, a pilot @ 200lb, half tanks 40gl @ 240lbs and 25lbs of misc crap in the baggage compartment 71 to 72 knots is now 1.35Vso.  That is definitely not a short field approach speed. 65kts would be 1.2Vso and make for low drama landings with 100ft or so of float.

3) Pulling flaps at 20 ft or 2 ft above the runway is poor technique. It's a band-aid foe being too fast. Having arrived at touch down with too much speed the pilot then dumps flaps to bring stall speed closer to his too fast arrival. sub optimal...

You're not the first to advocate the dive and dump method.  There's another member on this board whose opinions I respect a great deal with the exception of when he extols the virtues of the "ground effect flap dump" or his relief tube modification.  

65 knots is not an approach speed. stall speed is 59 knots. which makes 70.8 1.2Vso. which is what I do it at. anything below 70 knots in a Long body Mooney gets a bit uncomfortable. It is easy to tell the plane does not like it either.

[carusoam]

Roughly following the math...

My stall speeds in the POH include decimals.  My ASI is analog and not that precise...

 

If Vso is... 59

1.1... 65 short final 

1.2... 71 long final

1.3... 77 base, allows for a well controlled bank

To be on speed without staring at the ASI... the plane needs to be stable and trimmed nicely...

 

For real short fields, a nice steady headwind at the ground really helps.

Dont trust a strong headwind above to do the work. Because, when it does die out near the ground... your airspeed appears to die with it...

In A recent MS incident, a wood wing Mooney had a similar issue... resulting in an unwanted early arrival...

Last I saw these numbers executed, I was right seat with another NJMPer... (Thankyou Dr. W., I remember your generosity, sharing a flight)

So don’t make this conversation make you feel like doing this alone.... bring another pilot with you to back up your decision making, and check your execution....  have your go around planned and ready to go...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob - S50]

There's always more than one way to skin a cat, but I prefer a saying I heard years ago in the Air Force:

A superior pilot uses their superior judgement to avoid situations requiring their superior skill to save their superior ass.

When in doubt, just don't do it.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

65 knots is not an approach speed. stall speed is 59 knots. which makes 70.8 1.2Vso. which is what I do it at. anything below 70 knots in a Long body Mooney gets a bit uncomfortable. It is easy to tell the plane does not like it either.

I won’t quibble over a knot. AOPA listed the Vso at 57.5kts so I rounded up to 58. You say 59kts, fair enough, but that’s at 3200lbs. As weight decreases so does Vso. It’s not a huge range but I did the math for a theoretical weight of 2715lbs to arrive at the number I did. The stall speed is not 59kts at that weight. When attempting a short field landing, it’s a real benefit to have an idea of actual stall speed. My F will happily fly at 75mph (65kts) at max gross weight of 2740lbs. Why won’t a long body at the same or lighter weight? The wing is the same. The tail is the same? The stall speed can vary as much as 7kts which isn’t a lot, but it’s enough to screw up someone’s day on a short field attempt. Dumping flaps at 20’ does nothing to remedy the extra energy brought to the TDZ.

[Niko182]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I won’t quibble over a knot. AOPA listed the Vso at 57.5kts so I rounded up to 58. You say 59kts, fair enough, but that’s at 3200lbs. As weight decreases so does Vso. It’s not a huge range but I did the math for a theoretical weight of 2715lbs to arrive at the number I did. The stall speed is not 59kts at that weight. When attempting a short field landing, it’s a real benefit to have an idea of actual stall speed. My F will happily fly at 75mph (65kts) at max gross weight of 2740lbs. Why won’t a long body at the same or lighter weight? The wing is the same. The tail is the same? The stall speed can vary as much as 7kts which isn’t a lot, but it’s enough to screw up someone’s day on a short field attempt. Dumping flaps at 20’ does nothing to remedy the extra energy brought to the TDZ.

the flaps go up when the wheels touchdown. The 20ft is the flare. I flare about 20ft before the runway so I touchdown right at the beginning of the runway. I Still wouldn't do an approach in the longer bodied aircraft at 65 knots. its too slow, in my opinion. If possible, I'd like to hear the opinions of anyone else that does approach in an M20M, L, S, R, TN, V, or U at such a slow airspeed.

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Niko182 said:

65 knots is not an approach speed. stall speed is 59 knots. which makes 70.8 1.2Vso. which is what I do it at. anything below 70 knots in a Long body Mooney gets a bit uncomfortable. It is easy to tell the plane does not like it either.

Vs0 is based on gross weight, and I'm guessing anyone trying to land on a small strip is not landing at gross weight.  Figure realistic weights will result in stall speed 4-5 knots slower than listed Vs0?

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the flaps go up when the wheels touchdown. The 20ft is the flare. I flare about 20ft before the runway so I touchdown right at the beginning of the runway. I Still wouldn't do an approach in the longer bodied aircraft at 65 knots. its too slow, in my opinion. If possible, I'd like to hear the opinions of anyone else that does approach in an M20M, L, S, R, TN, V, or U at such a slow airspeed.

I too would like to see what other folks do for short fields in the long body. My guess is that a lot of long bodies just don't go into short fields very often.

It seems like having it both ways if you say slowing down more is too slow but that the flaps should be dumped in the flare (thank you for the correcting my misreading of the height at which you retract them). 

When you say "the plane doesn't like it either," what do you mean? Stall horn? Lack of control authority? Nose heavy?

The published stall speed of my AC is 62mph/54kts. Yet during slow flight portion of a typical BFR (me, an instructor and half tanks), I see indicated airspeeds under 60mph/52kts in controlled, level flight. Is it comfortable? No not really, but it becomes more tolerable as one acclimates to the way the plane handles in slow flight. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Shadrach

[steingar]

I tend not to fool around with switches on knobs on rollout too much.  Always afraid I'll hit the wrong thing and retract the gear by mistake.  Its happened.  Plenty of time to retract the flaps once the aircraft has slowed down and things aren't happening so fast.  Again, if its that short that your normal procedures won't work, go elsewhere.  Too damn many Mooneys have come to grief on short fields.  

[exM20K]

11 hours ago, Niko182 said:

the flaps go up when the wheels touchdown. The 20ft is the flare. I flare about 20ft before the runway so I touchdown right at the beginning of the runway. I Still wouldn't do an approach in the longer bodied aircraft at 65 knots. its too slow, in my opinion. If possible, I'd like to hear the opinions of anyone else that does approach in an M20M, L, S, R, TN, V, or U at such a slow airspeed.

I do it somewhat differently.  At typical landing weights, Vso for my Acclaim is 55-56KIAS.  I have verified the Stall speeds in landing configuration at altitude at several weights.  Stall warning is ~8kias before buffet.  So I fly minimum 80kias in the pattern before final and then at least a 1.2 vref on final. I do not flare so much as simultaneously roll out power and run nose up trim when I feel the plane enter the ground effect; you can feel it accelerate, and when in the ground effect, Vso is now probably another 5 knots lower. Make sure you’ve got the power all the way out- nothing floats like a mooney turning 1200RPM  

I do retract flaps and activate speed brakes on rollout, and I do my best to hold the nose off for additional aerodynamic braking and weight on the wheels. 

Total runway used is normally <2000’ with minimal braking.

 

NB: this is a clear approach.  Obstacles and displaced thresholds obviously increase runway requirement.

 

i did stick a GoPro under the plane earlier this week, and I’ll try to post up a video of how it looks under the plane.

 

edit - here's the video - MEH, looks like even my 68 knot threshold crossing had too much speed. I didn't even feel the bounce-ette. Counting runway stripes at 200' per each, looks like a ground roll of 1600' before I added power to make it to the taxiway.

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by exM20K

[Shadrach]

20 hours ago, steingar said:

Just about every strip I can think of that even begins to be uncomfortably short (that the supermen of Mooneyspace could land a fully loaded Ovation blindfolded with hands tied behind their backs) has obstructions on either end.  Usually they're honking big trees that forgot to stop growing when they hit fifty feet.  

2W2 resembles your remark.  The trees keep growing and the property owners bordering the airport aren't going to trim them.  The FAA  moved the displaced threshold on 14 a few years back yielding just a hair over 1500'.  Landing 32 gives you almost 100' more to work with but the runway drops 14' in the first 400'.  I only land 32 if the headwind is component >10kts.   If you're not on speed, the runway just drops away as you float down the hill in ground effect. If you are on speed, the touchdown is usually butter smooth because of the down hill.

 

 

[Shadrach]

23 minutes ago, exM20K said:

I do it somewhat differently.  At typical landing weights, Vso for my Acclaim is 55-56KIAS.  I have verified the Stall speeds in landing configuration at altitude at several weights.  Stall warning is ~8kias before buffet.  So I fly minimum 80kias in the pattern before final and then at least a 1.2 vref on final. I do not flare so much as simultaneously roll out power and run nose up trim when I feel the plane enter the ground effect; you can feel it accelerate, and when in the ground effect, Vso is now probably another 5 knots lower. Make sure you’ve got the power all the way out- nothing floats like a mooney turning 1200RPM  

I do retract flaps and activate speed brakes on rollout, and I do my best to hold the nose off for additional aerodynamic braking and weight on the wheels. 

Total runway used is normally <2000’ with minimal braking.

 

NB: this is a clear approach.  Obstacles and displaced thresholds obviously increase runway requirement.

 

i did stick a GoPro under the plane earlier this week, and I’ll try to post up a video of how it looks under the plane

All good points. Based on your numbers, this reads like good VFR SOP for all airports but not really a short field procedure. 

[skydvrboy]

13 hours ago, Shadrach said:

3) Pulling flaps at 20 ft or 2 ft above the runway is poor technique. It's a band-aid foe being too fast. Having arrived at touch down with too much speed the pilot then dumps flaps to bring stall speed closer to his too fast arrival. sub optimal...

Couldn't agree more, but I still do it as one last trump card when I realize I've carried too much energy into an otherwise decent approach.

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

To be on speed without staring at the ASI... the plane needs to be stable and trimmed nicely...

I don't think this can be emphasized enough.  A good short field landing (as with all landings) is all about a well trimmed stable approach and being set up properly early.

34 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Make sure you’ve got the power all the way out- nothing floats like a mooney turning 1200RPM

LOL, I made that mistake during transition training once.  Instructor made some comment like "See, I told you Mooneys like to float in ground effect."   That's when I realized I hadn't taken all the power out.  I bet I floated 2000' on that landing, at least it seemed like it!

[Jerry 5TJ]

Beta. 

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, exM20K said:

I do it somewhat differently.  At typical landing weights, Vso for my Acclaim is 55-56KIAS.  I have verified the Stall speeds in landing configuration at altitude at several weights.  Stall warning is ~8kias before buffet.  So I fly minimum 80kias in the pattern before final and then at least a 1.2 vref on final. I do not flare so much as simultaneously roll out power and run nose up trim when I feel the plane enter the ground effect; you can feel it accelerate, and when in the ground effect, Vso is now probably another 5 knots lower. Make sure you’ve got the power all the way out- nothing floats like a mooney turning 1200RPM  

I do retract flaps and activate speed brakes on rollout, and I do my best to hold the nose off for additional aerodynamic braking and weight on the wheels. 

Total runway used is normally <2000’ with minimal braking.

 

NB: this is a clear approach.  Obstacles and displaced thresholds obviously increase runway requirement.

 

i did stick a GoPro under the plane earlier this week, and I’ll try to post up a video of how it looks under the plane.

 

edit - here's the video - MEH, looks like even my 68 knot threshold crossing had too much speed. I didn't even feel the bounce-ette. Counting runway stripes at 200' per each, looks like a ground roll of 1600' before I added power to make it to the taxiway.

 

Not a short field but certainly your landing was an excellent display of airmanship.  That looks like a textbook example of how to gently plant the mains at full wing stall with the tail still flying. It is indeed the gentlest way of returning to Terra Firma. I would call that the optimal way of landing any Mooney when not trying to stuff it into a short strip.

I practice touchdowns like the one you made by doing mains only touch and gos. From a different perspective. Light left to right direct crosswind. Short field this was not...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Shadrach

[DonMuncy]

You guys make me feel terrible. I can only hope you had to take videos of a BUNCH of landings to get those.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

You guys make me feel terrible. I can only hope you had to take videos of a BUNCH of landings to get those.

Thanks Don!

It took several years of GoPro footage to splice together landings from different days with identical lighting and snow cover. I then edited it to make it look like I just cut out the pattern work of a two circuits of touch and gos. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Shadrach

[carusoam]

Not only gentle landing on the mains... lightly lowering the nose wheel (x-K) or keeping it off.... (Ross) 

But centerline control like you guys have, looks like you have the magnetraction option!

 

The Acclaim video has another interesting aspect... the gear doors are mirror polished. You can see a very nice neighborhood in reverse image.

World series on one screen, MS landing videos on another... and I’m looking at nice homes in the background... 

Nice work gents! Thanks for sharing the videos...

Best regards,

-a-

[Guitarmaster]

My short-field technique is to not go off the end of the runway. 

 

[steingar]

I have to admit the fellow saying short field techniques can save your bacon has the right of it.  That said, if my engine takes a dump my insurance company has just purchased itself a shiny Mooney.  My one and only concern is to get me and my pax back down to terra firma in one unadulterated piece.  If that means me doing off the end of a too short runway, I guess I'll have to live with that.  Way better to go off the end of the runway after rollout and braking than to stall spin during the approach trying to squeeze into the runway.