GFC500 Update

[khedrei]

I'm hoping not. He obviously hasn't done a Mooney yet. I got the impression that all the wiring and install for a 2 axis system including hooking up to the G5s and GPS and installing the unit in the stack would run 80 hours. So 40 hours per servo. But is adding 2 more servos going to take 40 hours each? I doubt it. Hopefully the bill won't be too high. He seems very fair so far in his quotes on the rest of the job.

[carqwik]

6 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Sort of on this thread, has anyone looked at this from bendix king.  Certainly in a year or so i would be looking to upgrade the ap in AL to this, particuarly since it is a slot in replacement for my kfc150.  

https://www.bendixking.com/en/products/aerocruze-230

Andrew

You must be a man of great faith!

[LANCECASPER]

56 minutes ago, khedrei said:

Pretty sure the servo on my K is in the left wing near where the push rod on the bottom of the aileron enters the wing. 

My avionics guy is guessing 40 hours per servo for mine. Seems a bit high but we will see. 

It takes a week per servo?? That's roughly $12,000 labor for 3 servos

[Bryan]

19 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

Why?  It exists, its tso'd.  The Bendix King ap knocked socks off all other ap s for years, till the gfc500 came out.  I wont need to rip out servos etc, far cheaper than the garmin as well.  

Ill leave that there while i nip off to bed for night.  See you all in the morning. . 

It doesn’t exists until owners have them installed, or hell, even purchase-able. Same with the fabled Ki300. It has been “coming out” for three years, full of missed dates.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, khedrei said:

Pretty sure the servo on my K is in the left wing near where the push rod on the bottom of the aileron enters the wing. 

My avionics guy is guessing 40 hours per servo for mine. Seems a bit high but we will see. 

For my J and a KFC200, the aileron servo was in the right wing, the flux valve was in the left wing, and the pitch, yaw, and trim servos were all in the battery compartment.

[flyingcheesehead]

5 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Sort of on this thread, has anyone looked at this from bendix king.  Certainly in a year or so i would be looking to upgrade the ap in AL to this, particuarly since it is a slot in replacement for my kfc150.  

https://www.bendixking.com/en/products/aerocruze-230

The problem is, HBK still wants $9,600 for an overhaul exchange trim servo. That's "fuck you, go away" pricing. They do not want to be in the GA market. I don't know why they're even bothering to keep up appearances any more, because that's all this is.

4 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Why?  It exists, its tso'd.  The Bendix King ap knocked socks off all other ap s for years, till the gfc500 came out.  I wont need to rip out servos etc, far cheaper than the garmin as well.  

No, it does not exist except maybe in Photoshop.

B/K introduced the KI-300 at Oshkosh 2015. You STILL can't get one that will run your King autopilot (the KA-310 autopilot adapter is due "any day now...."). Every year at Oshkosh, King has said that it would be "Available in Q4." At OSH 2017, I asked "Which year?" and the guy said "2018. I MEAN, 2017!!!" That 2018 was the most correct answer I ever got out of them.

The KFC-230 is a lame attempt by King to make you think they're coming out with something soon, to keep you from buying the other ones that are already out.

You can get a GFC-500 installed today on 12 aircraft types, including the Mooney Bravo, Ovation, and Eagle.

You can get an S-TEC 3100 installed today on 19 aircraft types.

You can get a TruTrak Vision today on 4 aircraft types.

You can get a Trio Pro Pilot today on 11 aircraft types.

You cannot get a KFC-230 today in any aircraft type, and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to change. King was once great at avionics. Now, they're great at vaporware. Hell, the KSN 770 has been "out" for 5 years, and I've never heard of a single person who actually bought one. It's a piece of crap. And not only do they have no support for connecting it to a portable device, they have no plans to do so in the future.

BK is, sadly, going the way of Narco. They're a has-been.

And all that is too bad, because I really wish there was something worthwhile to replace my KFC-150 that were so easy to install. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

11 hours ago, flyingcheesehead said:

You cannot get a KFC-230 today in any aircraft type, and I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to change. King was once great at avionics. Now, they're great at vaporware. Hell, the KSN 770 has been "out" for 5 years, and I've never heard of a single person who actually bought one. It's a piece of crap. And not only do they have no support for connecting it to a portable device, they have no plans to do so in the future.

BK is, sadly, going the way of Narco. They're a has-been.

And all that is too bad, because I really wish there was something worthwhile to replace my KFC-150 that were so easy to install. 

Several months ago I did an instrument rating with a student who had just purchased an M20J that had the KSN 770 as its GPS.  I almost didn't do the rating because of it, but it turned out to be quite a good GPS.  He sailed through the rating and at the post flight briefing the Examiner said, "I have nothing to say.  You flew a perfect ride."

Regarding the KFC 230, I was interested in it, but the delays are just not acceptable and the unit, if and when it will ever exist, does not have all the functionality of the GFC 500. Only the Garmin autopilots can do VNAV enroute, terminal, and approach.  Also, there would be the interface issues with the G500 TXi that are bypassed with the GFC 500.  Of course the KFC 230 would probably be half the cost of the GFC 500.  For my purposed, I would rather pay the extra money for a known product with all of its functionality.

[Bob - S50]

Another advantage of Garmin over BK is the cost of servos.

First, I'm guessing the Garmin servos will be more durable than the older design BK servos so I won't need to replace/repair them as often.

Second, I will be able to buy a brand new Garmin servo for less than it costs to have a BK servo overhauled.

Third, that being the case, some local avionics shops may have the servo I need sitting on a shelf which means I might be able to get the AP fixed in a matter of days rather than weeks.

[Carbon8]

Still waiting on J...……..

[gsxrpilot]

15 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Why?  It exists, its tso'd.  The Bendix King ap knocked socks off all other ap s for years, till the gfc500 came out.  I wont need to rip out servos etc, far cheaper than the garmin as well.  

Ill leave that there while i nip off to bed for night.  See you all in the morning. . 

I'm in the same boat here. The KFC150 has been working great in my 252 since 1987. I'd like to upgrade the autopilot but am not in any hurry. If BK somehow miraculously releases the 230 this year, I'll buy it. For just under $10K it is expected to be a slide in replacement for the KFC150 (saving big $$$$ on installation) and adding a warrantee on all the existing servos.

I'm not prepared to wait 5 years for this, which might not be long enough for BK to actually release it, but I'll wait this year as my existing KFC150is working just fine.

[donkaye, MCFI]

6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

 

The great thing about markets is that there are lots of different people wanting different things.  I trust garmin as far as i can throw them as they lock you into their products.  Here is the small print on that vnav option you love so much

 

With the optional GAD™ 29 nav data adapter, GFC 500 will interface with the GTN™ 650 and GTN 750 and legacy GNS™ 430 and GNS 530 (WAAS and non-WAAS) series navigators to fly a wide range of precision, nonprecision and GPS-guided approaches as well as holds, procedure turns, missed approaches and more.

so buy our ap, then buy MORE products from us and we will let you talk to our other products, etc.  Hmm, sounds like IBM, Apple, Microsoft etc.  Im a unix guy myself, open source, connect to anything and it works.  

I like the king because, 1. Touch wood, i don't need it right now, 2. Its a simple upgrade, unlike garmin which is a ripout of everything already there, and replace, 3.  Historically the 150 has been so much more stable than other aps.  I've yet to fly in turbulence with a garmin, but i have flown with others and i did not like it, the ap never felt in control, which the 150 does.

Andrew

You're right.  For all the reasons that you dislike Garmin, those are the exact reasons that I like them.  Because you're dealing with one vendor everything will interface perfectly to have all functions capable of each product to work with each other.  The Garmin servos are brushless and digital, and light for precise control.  As such, they should require much less maintenance than other non brushless types.  Over the long run the cost of maintenance should pay for the autopilot over other autopilots.  They should  work to level off in both ascent and descent to the foot, unlike the BK servos that overshoot by 10% of the  ROC or ROD.  I've flown the GFC 700 extensively and it is the best autopilot in any single engine piston airplane I have flown.  The GFC 500 is a later version and should be even better.  If I had bought Garmin stock over the past month, I could have had a free autopilot with the profits.

Regarding VNAV with the Garmin GTN and GNS series, it is pretty slick once you figure out how to use it.  The documentation is terrible, I'll give you that.  It can be flown manually with the KFC 150, but with manual control of V/S.  The display on the G500TXi is really nice and makes it easy to track deviation and required ROD.

So, what is that worth?  Unfortunately, a high price tag.  And therein lies the rub for many people.  You can't buy a Rolls Royce for the price of a VW.

 

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'm in the same boat here. The KFC150 has been working great in my 252 since 1987. I'd like to upgrade the autopilot but am not in any hurry. If BK somehow miraculously releases the 230 this year, I'll buy it. For just under $10K it is expected to be a slide in replacement for the KFC150 (saving big $$$$ on installation) and adding a warrantee on all the existing servos.

I'm not prepared to wait 5 years for this, which might not be long enough for BK to actually release it, but I'll wait this year as my existing KFC150is working just fine.

I am interested in this as well, but after installing the KAS 297B last year, I am unsure how everything works together since the face plate of the AeroCruze seems to be the control for Vertical Speed and Altitude pre-select. Does their definition of slide-in mean pin-compatible like an IFD 440 is with the GNS 430W or does it mean just takes the same space? Would some wiring work will be required to eliminate some of the existing, and potentially redundant, hardware in the current A/P configuration? Inquiring minds and potential buyers want to know.

BK has been infuriatingly poor on meeting their release dates, and at SnF last year, the person I spoke with took offense when I brought up their lack of delivery. I would love for them to deliver good, quality GA products, as some of mine from the last century could use refreshing, but like Paul, everything is working well now. I can hold out a while longer, but my patience does have limits.

[LANCECASPER]

10 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Does their definition of slide-in mean pin-compatible like an IFD 440 is with the GNS 430W or does it mean just takes the same space? Would some wiring work will be required to eliminate some of the existing, and potentially redundant, hardware in the current A/P configuration? Inquiring minds and potential buyers want to know.

It fits in the same space

https://www.bendixking.com/en/~/media/bendixking/files/a60-1576-000-000_aerocruze230-ds.pdf

 

There is a thread on Beechtalk that discusses it: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=159538

 

[Steve W]

11 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

It fits in the same space

https://www.bendixking.com/en/~/media/bendixking/files/a60-1576-000-000_aerocruze230-ds.pdf

 

There is a thread on Beechtalk that discusses it: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=159538

 

To summarize still no final details, seems to need an ADC, needs a digital attitude source, initially G500(presumably TXi counts), later KI-300 and Aspen. 

The good news is that you can pay for the King protection racket for your servos after the initial warranty extension.

Presumably anyone going to SUN 'n FUN might be able to get some useful details and report back.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Steve W

[81X]

18 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Why?  It exists, its tso'd.  The Bendix King ap knocked socks off all other ap s for years, till the gfc500 came out.  I wont need to rip out servos etc, far cheaper than the garmin as well.  

Ill leave that there while i nip off to bed for night.  See you all in the morning. . 

Agree that the BK autopilots were really nice, and fly the airplane better than any of the other AP’s that were available.  That attitude-based control is hard to beat.  While very functional, in my opinion rate-based APs are just annoying in anything other than the occasional bumps in the sky.

That said, the increased feature set of the GFC500, digital attitude-based control and new, modern smart servos will probably be tough to beat. One thing that I think is a super important part of a replacement upgrade that isn’t often mentioned is completely un-sexy: new wiring. 30+ year old plastic, including that plastic wrapped around every wire and connector,  has a way of causing random failures when you rely on these systems.  

 I’m scheduled to get my GFC500 equipped K back early next week weather permitting, and I’ll be sure to give you guys a PIREP including the differences between that and the capable KFC150 (with VS and preselect) that came out of it.  

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by 81X

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

It fits in the same space

https://www.bendixking.com/en/~/media/bendixking/files/a60-1576-000-000_aerocruze230-ds.pdf

 

There is a thread on Beechtalk that discusses it: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=159538

 

Thanks, @LANCECASPER. I like the way they hedge on the first post - 

 It's designed to be the most effective upgrade for KFC 150, 200, 250 autopilots by utilizing existing servos, brackets, and the majority of the wiring. 

Even so, after reading the entire post, it appears they may actually have a product to display at SnF. And for the price they quote, it will be very tempting to consider it. We will see how it shakes out in Lakeland.

[MIm20c]

I don’t trust the BK company to do the right thing regarding the ongoing maintenance of their systems...

8 years ago we needed the AP control head tested trying to chase down a problem. Unit tested perfect. Repair bill $2200. A good friend had the same type of crontrol unit test a couple years ago, again no problems $3000. My guess is when the 230 is sent in to be checked (if no repairs are needed) the fee will be over $5k.  IMO BK will require the 230 to be sent to them.

Down time is important. Trying to sort out if it’s a servo problem, wiring problem, control unit, AP adapter, or AI indicator can take some time ($$$).  However, the Garmin fanboy (I’m probably included), might be able to spool up BT and solve my gfc problem in 30 mins on Sunday afternoon with a response from Garmin.  Digital connections from start to finish will minimize troubleshooting time...again IMO. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Love my KFC225 for its smooth flight.  Don’t have the same positive lust for the autopilot‘s servo reliability: I keep a spare overhauled pitch servo on hand.  They are good for about 400 hours on average.  (Fifth pitch servo was installed at 2100 hours)

If it weren’t for Garmin’s efforts to get around the KFC225 interface quirks it would not be possible to fly coupled RNAV GPS approaches: The last King KFC225 firmware release was sixteen years ago.  

I will get the GFC600 in a year or two.  Including new all servos and wiring. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Love my KFC225 for its smooth flight.  Don’t have the same positive lust for the autopilot‘s servo reliability: I keep a spare overhauled pitch servo on hand.  They are good for about 400 hours on average.  (Fifth pitch servo was installed at 2100 hours)

If it weren’t for Garmin’s efforts to get around the KFC225 interface quirks it would not be possible to fly coupled RNAV GPS approaches: The last King KFC225 firmware release was sixteen years ago.  

I will get the GFC600 in a year or two.  Including new all servos and wiring. 

Your P46T must be a 1999 model. I believe that was the only year that Piper used the KFC225 in the P46. I envied the 1999 owners. I had a 2000 P46 with an            S-TEC 55X. The King Autopilots I'd flown behind were very precise, the S-TEC wandered all over the place and earned the name "S-Turn". 

I had a KFC225 in a Mooney Ovation and it worked very well. They seemed to be either good or bad, no in-between.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

I had a KFC225 in a Mooney Ovation and it worked very well. They seemed to be either good or bad, no in-between.

The 225 is really nice. We’ve also seen 1200-1400 hr servo life which is better than most. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

14 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

 

I trust garmin as far as i can throw them as they lock you into their products. 

 

A couple of reasons why I keep buying Garmin products.

1. Huge discounts when I did my upgrade. 2. Issues with the GMA 35; immediate replacement sent. 3. Issues with 2 FS 510 when they first came out:  Immediately replacements.  4. After a System Upgrade to the GTX 800 recently, it wouldn't work properly; unit was out of warranty and they replaced with a new unit.  5. Same issue with my Aera 796. After a System Update, the unit wouldn't start up; it was out of warranty and they replaced the unit with a new one.  I didn't just get the new one back.  I got a new  boxed unit with all accessories included.  6. Rather easy upgrade path from the G500 to the G500TXi.  

When you buy a Rolls Royce you expect to be treated with extra care.  That has been my experience with Garmin.

[gsxrpilot]

16 hours ago, donkaye said:

A couple of reasons why I keep buying Garmin products.

1. Huge discounts when I did my upgrade. 2. Issues with the GMA 35; immediate replacement sent. 3. Issues with 2 FS 510 when they first came out:  Immediately replacements.  4. After a System Upgrade to the GTX 800 recently, it wouldn't work properly; unit was out of warranty and they replaced with a new unit.  5. Same issue with my Aera 796. After a System Update, the unit wouldn't start up; it was out of warranty and they replaced the unit with a new one.  I didn't just get the new one back.  I got a new  boxed unit with all accessories included.  6. Rather easy upgrade path from the G500 to the G500TXi.  

When you buy a Rolls Royce you expect to be treated with extra care.  That has been my experience with Garmin.

You can't argue with this logic. I just wonder how many "Rolls Royce's" you have to buy before getting the red carpet treatment. On a more serious note, I wonder if the Avionics shop you're using has anything to do with this level of service as well. I've never been able to get Garmin on the phone or to respond to an email other than to tell me to go through the Avionics shop.

[flyingcheesehead]

On 3/21/2019 at 5:36 AM, Hyett6420 said:

The great thing about markets is that there are lots of different people wanting different things.  I trust garmin as far as i can throw them as they lock you into their products.  Here is the small print on that vnav option you love so much

 

With the optional GAD™ 29 nav data adapter, GFC 500 will interface with the GTN™ 650 and GTN 750 and legacy GNS™ 430 and GNS 530 (WAAS and non-WAAS) series navigators to fly a wide range of precision, nonprecision and GPS-guided approaches as well as holds, procedure turns, missed approaches and more.

so buy our ap, then buy MORE products from us and we will let you talk to our other products, etc.  Hmm, sounds like IBM, Apple, Microsoft etc.  Im a unix guy myself, open source, connect to anything and it works.  

I like the king because, 1. Touch wood, i don't need it right now, 2. Its a simple upgrade, unlike garmin which is a ripout of everything already there, and replace, 3.  Historically the 150 has been so much more stable than other aps.  I've yet to fly in turbulence with a garmin, but i have flown with others and i did not like it, the ap never felt in control, which the 150 does.

Andrew

I'm well aware of the need for the GAD 29B. Its retail price is a measly 700 bucks... But King also makes use of a million little interface boxes in their gear. I have a giant box full of King stuff that got pulled out of my plane during the last upgrade - It weighs about 60 pounds! And there's still a ton in my plane thanks to the KFC-150, KI256, KI-525A, and KX165. One of the things still in my plane is a box that does nothing but generate beeps.  

Don't get me wrong, the KFC 150 is a great autopilot when it works, and frankly the best one I've ever flown behind that wasn't a Garmin. But the game has changed, and King has not been able to keep up... And I think the KFC 230 is yet another too-little-too-late effort from them.

On 3/21/2019 at 9:31 AM, Bob - S50 said:

Another advantage of Garmin over BK is the cost of servos.

First, I'm guessing the Garmin servos will be more durable than the older design BK servos so I won't need to replace/repair them as often.

Ah, servos. A major weak point for King, especially in the KFC 225. An engineer's take on it and the story of his own experience with them is here, and quite appalling - I can't believe they got certified: http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/kfc225/index.html

On 3/21/2019 at 11:49 AM, Steve W said:

To summarize still no final details, seems to need an ADC, needs a digital attitude source, initially G500(presumably TXi counts), later KI-300 and Aspen. 

That's comical - They'll need a Garmin for the attitude source? Bwaaahahahaha! 

[JJV7109]

So what about that G3X Touch announcement today...I haven't seen the approved aircraft list yet though.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/garmin-g3x-touch-certified-for-single-engine-piston-aircraft/

[khedrei]

Its posted in the G3X thread. All the mooneys on it I think.