xcrmckenna Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 Yesterday on take off my gear would not retract. When I moved the gear up/down switch in the up position nothing happened. No warning lights on the panel like when my Airspeed safety switch went out last year, no alarm horn buzzing. Pressing the gear bypass button would not fold the gear either. Everything acted like the system didn’t know the gear was switched to the up position. After awhile of trouble shooting, making sure no breakers were popped and moving the gear switch up and down 20 times the gear finally went up. I set up for landing and the gear retracted no problem. I landed, looked over the gear to make sure nothing was jammed “even though the gear system wasn’t trying to fold up but couldn’t due to being jammed”. I took off again and the same issue happened. The gear would not go up at any Airspeed. And after about ten or fifteen minutes the gear for no reason decided to go up after multiple times moving the switch to the up position. The gear again went down into the lock position without a problem I’m guessing the gear up/down switch is bad. I have an email in to my mechanic this morning but being Monday I’m sure I’m not the only one that had problems over the weekend. I pulled the glair shield out and the connections are all tight on the back of the switch. Is the gear switch a double pole switch? The back of the switch has three other identical terminals. Is it possible we can just move the connections into the 1,2,& 3 terminals? I will check the switch with a multi meter to verify the open and close. Thanks for your help. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 You did check your emergency handle is latched properly? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 There's an up stop limit switch that might be bad as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 There's an up stop limit switch that might be bad as well. If that was bad wouldn’t the gear still go up, it just wouldn’t know when to stop?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, xcrmckenna said: If that was bad wouldn’t the gear still go up, it just wouldn’t know when to stop? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk No, it may be turning the motor off at the up limit, so if it is turning it off prematurely it won't allow the gear to go up. i.e., it behaves like it is already at the up limit. Edited July 23, 2018 by EricJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 No, it may be turning the motor off at the up limit, so if it is turning it off prematurely it won't allow the gear to go up. i.e., it behaves like it is already at the up limit. Cool, I will do some digging to find it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 ...so, if the gear is not operating correctly, how did you know it was going to go back down? Wouldn't this trouble-shooting best be done while up on jacks? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 I vote bad solenoid. Stomp your feet on the floor and see if it comes up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, teejayevans said: You did check your emergency handle is latched properly? Would alarms go off with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 ...so, if the gear is not operating correctly, how did you know it was going to go back down? Wouldn't this trouble-shooting best be done while up on jacks? That’s the joys of being PIC. I don’t know how the gear not going up is an emergency. So I carried on with trouble shooting. The first go around I took off without knowing I had a problem. Second the gear went up in flight. I was heading to a towered Airport and knew if it didn’t go down I had the emergency retraction ability and the tower to confirm the gear down. The gear went down no problem. The only issue was reminding me what it was like to fly a Cessna. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 Would alarms go off with that? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, teejayevans said: Thanks. My POH does not have that blurb, it just says if the gear lights and horn come on to go through the failed gear retract checklist, and if that fails to check the manual extension lever. It does not actually say the gear lights and horn DON'T come on if the manual extension lever is in the wrong position. I have an '86 M20J. I'll have to remember to test this out sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 I would troubleshoot balky gear while on jacks, not in the air, ESPECIALLY if I suspected trouble with the switch. I've done a (partial) emergency extension for real, due to total electrical failure on a VOR-A approach not long after breaking out of the clouds. It's not something I'm anxious to repeat in the pattern. Think about it: if the switch is balky, then the gear goes up, what makes you think it won't be balky again when you try to put it down? Sure, it worked last time, but it went up not long ago, too. And suppose it's something mechanical, not the switch--how's it gonna come down then? Bent activation rod, jammed motor, worn spline gear . . . These may allow the gear to eventually go up but not come down . . . Look at the risk:benefit ratio. You'll learn more on the jacks because someone can move the switch while you / your A&P are underneath watching, poking, checking; and the risk is only to whatever tool or body part you poke into the exposed mechanism (because you can take the belly off and see everything . . . . ). Good luck, and don't raise the gear in the air until you're sure it will come back down. I've flown home twice gear down, at Cessna speeds. It didn't hurt me or the plane, and my landings were both unremarkable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 I would troubleshoot balky gear while on jacks, not in the air, ESPECIALLY if I suspected trouble with the switch. I've done a (partial) emergency extension for real, due to total electrical failure on a VOR-A approach not long after breaking out of the clouds. It's not something I'm anxious to repeat in the pattern. Think about it: if the switch is balky, then the gear goes up, what makes you think it won't be balky again when you try to put it down? Sure, it worked last time, but it went up not long ago, too. And suppose it's something mechanical, not the switch--how's it gonna come down then? Bent activation rod, jammed motor, worn spline gear . . . These may allow the gear to eventually go up but not come down . . . Look at the risk:benefit ratio. You'll learn more on the jacks because someone can move the switch while you / your A&P are underneath watching, poking, checking; and the risk is only to whatever tool or body part you poke into the exposed mechanism (because you can take the belly off and see everything . . . . ). Good luck, and don't raise the gear in the air until you're sure it will come back down. I've flown home twice gear down, at Cessna speeds. It didn't hurt me or the plane, and my landings were both unremarkable. Putting the gear down while breaking out of the clouds at 700’ on a vor approach is way different then unrestricted visibility total vfr with five hours of fuel like the conditions I was in. Like I said at no time was this an emergency. Nor is this thread asking for people’s opinions on what I should have done. I don’t question you for not flying at night. And I would say what I did was far safer then that. But now that people are deciding to question my pilot decision I will respond. Every flight I take I expect an engine out on take off, climb, cruise, decent, landing and roll out. I also plan for the gear not to go up nor go down. If I have to I’m ready to belly the plane if the gear won’t go down even after my emergency procedure. I anticipate my wing or tail being ripped off from turbulence or hitting a large bird or even a mid air collision. This is morbid but that’s one of the reasons I carry a pistol with me. If I’m solo I don’t have the desire to watch the ground come at me at terminal velocity. I still don’t see how the gear not going up is an emergency that requires an immediate return to the airport? I was not trouble shooting the gear in the pattern. I continued to fly the plane and went through my check lists that with a level head took about 10-15 minutes. I was very deliberate in my actions and talked to myself the whole time. The gear showed no signs of being jammed, it just simply did NOTHING when I moved the switch to the up position. And the total Flight I had planned was 25-30 minutes long. It was also an airport with a mechanic. On the flip side of my gear won’t go down and I have enough fuel and weather permitting I’m flying to my msc and belly the plane there. If anything on a vfr unrestricted day being in the pattern and having something going wrong on climb out might be the worst time to turn back around. Say I immediately turn to cross then downwind when the gear didn’t go up. Being flustered I might have forgot to lower the gear switch. Then on short final all of a sudden the gear goes up. My plane has a higher stalling speed with the gear up then down. I’m sure you see where I’m going with this and you are reading about a Mooney for no reason is a burning pile of scrap 100’ feet short of the runway because it stalled and I slammed to the ground. Please don’t assume I was not flying the plane or that I wasn’t thinking through my actions because that was very far from the case. Okay I’m off my soap box......Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovecornfields Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 2 hours ago, xcrmckenna said: But now that people are deciding to question my pilot decision I will respond....This is morbid but that’s one of the reasons I carry a pistol with me. If I’m solo I don’t have the desire to watch the ground come at me at terminal velocity. You carry a pistol on every flight so you can commit suicide if you’re going to crash? Not judging, just clarifying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 You carry a pistol on every flight so you can commit suicide if you’re going to crash? Not judging, just clarifying. Lol, out of all I wrote you needed clarification on that? No that is not the reason I carry a pistol with me, and that isn’t an option if I’m going to just crash. I carry a pistol for many many reasons and will be glad to go into that at a different time and place. If I’m at 14,500 and suddenly had a wing or my tail ripped off and find myself tumbling to the ground with NO chance to recover I don’t have a desire to watch myself come back to Mother Earth. I said it was a morbid comment and I’ll leave it at that. It was more of the fact I think about a lot of things that can happen in an airplane and I try to prepare for it. My point was out of all the issues I’ve thought about in a plane the gear not going up is one of them and I don’t place it in an emergency that I need to be on the ground as soon as possible. And on a vfr day with lots of fuel, I don’t place the gear not coming down as an immediate need to get down on the ground any sooner than need be. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 There would be nothing wrong with switching to the second set of switch contacts as a first simple trouble shoot. From there wire connections at the gear relays and motor. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 14 hours ago, ilovecornfields said: You carry a pistol on every flight so you can commit suicide if you’re going to crash? Not judging, just clarifying. I think he does in case his crazy ex GF shows up at airport 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 I think he does in case his crazy ex GF shows up at airport True story.....Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Skinner Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 On 7/23/2018 at 1:30 PM, xcrmckenna said: Yesterday on take off my gear would not retract. When I moved the gear up/down switch in the up position nothing happened. No warning lights on the panel like when my Airspeed safety switch went out last year, no alarm horn buzzing. I had this problem last March. It turned out that it was the top left circuit breaker in my panel (same one as the cigarette outlet) had popped. This is shared with the airspeed sensor so my gear would not come up because it did not indicate airspeed. In your case, if the circuit breaker is OK then check the sensor when on jacks. Also, If you get moisture in your static line and your airspeed indicator is not functioning correctly your gear may not come up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 so if it was airspeed switch last time.... why is it not airspeed switch this time? jacks and VOM are your friend here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 so if it was airspeed switch last time.... why is it not airspeed switch this time? jacks and VOM are your friend here. When I place the gear switch in the up position nothing happens. No lights come on, no warnings no nothing. It’s as if the gear switch is bad or is not receiving power to be able to switch power to the motor. When the Airspeed switch went bad whatever down stream knew the gear selector switch was in the up position but told me the gear was unsafe the buzzer went off and I was still able to raise the gear with the bypass switch. I never said it won’t go up on jacks. but what I did was not unsafe. Flying the plane with the gear down is not an emergency. I was simply telling the forum what happens when I place my gear switch in the up position. The question was what would cause no alarms to go off and the gear to remain down when I put the gear in the up position? Is the gear limit switches before the gear up/down switch, and would mean I won’t have power at the gear up/down switch? And Can i check with a volt meter? Are the limit switches after the gear up/down switch where I will have power to the up/down switch but if the limit switch is bad I won’t have power after them? Where is the Airspeed safety switch in the series? And what is VOM?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 Volt Ohms Meter. The schematics has the answers to your question. My point about the jack stands is you can't test this stuff without them.... not your flying abilities. Here are the schematics http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney Service Manuel M20J Vol. 2 of 2.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcrmckenna Posted July 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 Volt Ohms Meter. The schematics has the answers to your question. My point about the jack stands is you can't test this stuff without them.... not your flying abilities. Here are the schematics http://mooney.free.fr/Manuels M20J/M20J/Mooney Service Manuel M20J Vol. 2 of 2.pdf Thanks for the schematic, and I think you are missing my point. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 I get your point. I am just keeping the discussion to helping you through your lecrical issues. I have found that A&Ps are good at mechanical things not so good at sparky stuff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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