TruTrak Autopilot Pre Order's / Status Update

[drapo]

3 minutes ago, Jeev said:

 My main point is that I can not promise a 25 hour install based on doing a high quality job. 

Being a Mooney owner, I understand that there are no guaranteed  quote$ in general aviation. Looking through the installation manual of the TT Vizion for other types, it looks pretty well engineered and the only surprises should come from individual airframes and not the average fleet. 

Just a marketing approach but, I wouldn’t use the exception to market a product, in this case your installation of the TT,  but would quote the generic cost and would caution that in some cases, actual install costs could be greater. 

[David_H]

28 minutes ago, Jeev said:

Gentlemen, you have two shops us on the west coast and Jesse on the east coast who are being transparent with pricing, have experience installing these systems and are excited about TruTrak.

Since you have past experience installing these... was the 18hr average accurate for Cessnas or Pipers?

[Jesse Saint]

I try to always quote a flat rate on jobs like this. If we get it done faster, that’s good for us. If it takes longer than expected, it’s not as good for us. Either way you win because you know what it will cost. If I have to remove another auto pilot, I’ll usually give a flat rate upcharge for that. This may not be the way other shops handle it, but I like to handle things this way. If we run into something that must be changed that is a major thing, then we will discuss it with the aircraft owner. If the typical Mooney install takes longer than expected, then we would have to increase our price. If it goes faster than normal, then we would drop our price. 

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, toto said:

The theory is that TruTrak really is taking a different, simpler approach. They are installing all servos in space accessible from the cabin ("under the seats" is how I've heard it described). Which is meant to cut the install time in half. It may end up being that removing legacy AP stuff is the bulk of the work. 

That is very interesting!

[David_H]

21 minutes ago, Jesse Saint said:

I try to always quote a flat rate on jobs like this. If we get it done faster, that’s good for us. If it takes longer than expected, it’s not as good for us.

 

21 minutes ago, Jesse Saint said:

If the typical Mooney install takes longer than expected, then we would have to increase our price. If it goes faster than normal, then we would drop our price.  

One approach isn't necessarily better than the other... but the same approaches can't be applied together.

The final bill rarely comes back under quoted price. There's always something found that wasn't expected.

It just seems as if quotes are generated based on finding something unexpected... then increased once something unexpected is found.

[Jesse Saint]

I meant, increased on future installs. If the installed progevto be more complicated on average, then the quoted flat rate would increase for future customers. 

[carusoam]

Ethics lesson duly noted, David...  

Great advice for the installers who want to understand customer concerns...

We are all looking forward to the hard numbers that will only be available after a few get installed...

 

This topic is a real challenge to even type about... selecting the right words to describe what is going on...

A few loose words make it look like somebody is being accused of cheating.... use caution with word selection???

 

Same situation for the installers...  some potential customers are not pro-writers... expect some accidental negativity every now and then...

Keep up the good work everybody... this is a pretty exciting thread to follow...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Jeev]

5 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Ethics lesson duly noted, David...  

Great advice for the installers who want to understand customer concerns...

We are all looking forward to the hard numbers that will only be available after a few get installed...

 

This topic is a real challenge to even type about... selecting the right words to describe what is going on...

A few loose words make it look like somebody is being accused of cheating.... use caution with word selection???

 

Same situation for the installers...  some potential customers are not pro-writers... expect some accidental negativity every now and then...

Keep up the good work everybody... this is a pretty exciting thread to follow...

 

Best regards,

-a-

Well said you have a great way of smoothing things out.  Yes I take responsibility for being too optimistic in the initial estimates. What I should have done is wait until after the first install to start talking numbers, lesson learned.  Let’s all have a great weekend and I am still very excited about this autopilot.  I just did another test flight last week and it was rock solid. If you know of anyone with a piper or Cessna with one installed try to bum a ride! 

[David_H]

Just to be crystal clear, I have no personal experience with either of these shops. They could really be stand-up operations.

Since there's no data available for Mooney installs yet (perfectly understandable), the Cessna and Piper installs could provide some indication of how this thing could possibly go.

Is it possible to hear how much time those installs are really taking?

[Jeev]

31 minutes ago, David_H said:

Just to be crystal clear, I have no personal experience with either of these shops. They could really be stand-up operations.

Since there's no data available for Mooney installs yet (perfectly understandable), the Cessna and Piper installs could provide some indication of how this thing could possibly go.

Is it possible to hear how much time those installs are really taking?

Yes, they have ranged from 30-40hrs total time.  The first one was 40 hrs (billed for 25) we have now got the actual time down to 30-35 hrs.  That includes everything, removal of old autopilot, fabrication of mounting brackets / holes for the panel, gps interface and a flight test with the owner.  Those times assume a “normal” 30-50 year old airframe but don’t account for anything major found. The 1st Mooney install will be telling, I will keep accurate records of time and post the details here as well as the install manual. 

[David_H]

1 hour ago, Jesse Saint said:

I meant, increased on future installs. If the installed progevto be more complicated on average, then the quoted flat rate would increase for future customers. 

That makes perfect sense Jesse. I can now see where I misunderstood your post.

[NJMac]

Yes, they have ranged from 30-40hrs total time.  The first one was 40 hrs (billed for 25) we have now got the actual time down to 30-35 hrs.  That includes everything, removal of old autopilot, fabrication of mounting brackets / holes for the panel, gps interface and a flight test with the owner.  Those times assume a “normal” 30-50 year old airframe but don’t account for anything major found. The 1st Mooney install will be telling, I will keep accurate records of time and post the details here as well as the install manual. 

My Mooney has nothing installed. Perfect test subject to use to get baseline numbers, if you know what I mean.

[MBDiagMan]

I got so accustomed to the dragging out of the certification date I gave up following the scuttlebutt for awhile.  What is the latest estimated date for Mooney Tru Trak availability?  Is it supposed to be this year?

[BP03]

I agree with MBDiagMan - I've lost track...is there a synopsis of the 3-4 AP offerings and estimated availability date/install price?

TruTrak - Trio - Garmin 500 - S-TEC 30? 

[NJMac]

Trutrac is MIA or AWOL for their STC.
Trio called a truce before they got started.
Garmin just announced war, getting the short boddies certified by effectively end of year.
Stec has the 3100 that's like bringing a nuke to the war game the others are playing but bring your gold coins to the install shop.

My money went from waiting on the trutrac to waiting on the GFC500.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[BP03]

Thanks for the synopsis!  Garmin is showing the M20 (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional) Models A-G approved...but, cost seems more in line with Stec unless you already have G5's installed.  Was hoping TT or Trio was getting some FAA love/support.

[kpaul]

2 minutes ago, BP03 said:

Thanks for the synopsis!  Garmin is showing the M20 (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional) Models A-G approved...but, cost seems more in line with Stec unless you already have G5's installed.  Was hoping TT or Trio was getting some FAA love/support.

Nope!  There are zero approved M20s. 

That link states that...GFC 500 Certification Programs Planned to Begin in the Next 12-months:  Mooney M20

• Models: M20, A, B, C, D, E, F,

[DXB]

3 minutes ago, BP03 said:

Thanks for the synopsis!  Garmin is showing the M20 (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional) Models A-G approved...but, cost seems more in line with Stec unless you already have G5's installed.  Was hoping TT or Trio was getting some FAA love/support.

Link lists M20A-G models under the heading "GFC 500 Certification Programs Planned to Begin in the Next 12-months (Not currently under development and subject to change)."  Hardly inspires confidence.  Is there further inside info here?  I thought TruTrak STC was well under way.  Is there new information to the contrary that I missed?

[Jeev]

I am in contact with TruTrak at least weekly and they are definitely NOT MIA.  The certification was pushed back a few months due to the gov shutdown but they are still expecting mid this year or late spring to be optimistic.  As always approvals through the FAA are never as expected when it comes to the timeline. I did get confirmation that the retail price for all the M20 kits will be $5,000.  As soon as I hear more I will definitely update this post and wreath out to all of you on my preorder list.

thank you,

sanjeev 

[MBDiagMan]

This is very disappointing, actually irritating news.  The Trutrak guy told me at the Mooney Max event in October it was going from November Mooney release to March.  Now it appears it is going on the NEVER list.  I was counting on this when I bought my plane.  Now my autopilot budget is blown completely out of the water.  I wonder if Brittain will be rebuilding levelers again soon.  They’re now my only hope within my budget.

irritated!

[Steve W]

29 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Trutrac is MIA or AWOL for their STC.
Trio called a truce before they got started.
Garmin just announced war, getting the short boddies certified by effectively end of year.
Stec has the 3100 that's like bringing a nuke to the war game the others are playing but bring your gold coins to the install shop.

My money went from waiting on the trutrac to waiting on the GFC500.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
 

Come on, you totally forgot the King AeroCruze  230.... er, never mind, sorry.

 

[TX-Champ]

Does anyone know the harness specifications needed for the TruTrak install?  I couldn't find it in their docs.   I'm down for annual and have everything opened up and accessible.

It would be a great time to run some wire bundles.

(I've done a TruTrack on a RV9A in the past so that provides some guidance but it may vary a bit...)

Any details would be appreciated.

Robert

 

 

[Jeev]

16 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

This is very disappointing, actually irritating news.  The Trutrak guy told me at the Mooney Max event in October it was going from November Mooney release to March.  Now it appears it is going on the NEVER list.  I was counting on this when I bought my plane.  Now my autopilot budget is blown completely out of the water.  I wonder if Brittain will be rebuilding levelers again soon.  They’re now my only hope within my budget.

irritated!

I hear ya. I’ve had people lined up for installs since before my first post.  I really get the sense it’s the FAA not TruTrak.  The guys over there are working hard. 

[Jeev]

24 minutes ago, TX-Champ said:

Does anyone know the harness specifications needed for the TruTrak install?  I couldn't find it in their docs.   I'm down for annual and have everything opened up and accessible.

It would be a great time to run some wire bundles.

(I've done a TruTrack on a RV9A in the past so that provides some guidance but it may vary a bit...)

Any details would be appreciated.

Robert

 

 

Here is a link to the install manual on my site.  It should be very similar to this.

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/67ffe437-954b-48ce-b81a-78c599cefe78/downloads/1cnsgjvr6_746127.pdf

I also have all the install manuals posted here for the currently approved airframes: 

https://wolfaviationsales.com/trutrak-autopilots#97de52d9-c555-4987-bafd-881053549dc9

[MIm20c]

29 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

This is very disappointing, actually irritating news.  The Trutrak guy told me at the Mooney Max event in October it was going from November Mooney release to March.  Now it appears it is going on the NEVER list.  I was counting on this when I bought my plane.  Now my autopilot budget is blown completely out of the water.  I wonder if Brittain will be rebuilding levelers again soon.  They’re now my only hope within my budget.

irritated!

You’re irritated because the certification date slipped and you already spent the AP budget on other things?  I’m confused the cost is the same at less than half the price of an stec 30 as it was 6 months ago.