Tempest fine wire - issues

[Yetti]

So has anyone had the center electrode fall out of a Tempest Fine wire?   It caused a bit of excitement on departure today. Purchased November 2016.   Looks like I have about 100 hours on them.  Long day, pictures and details tomorrow.  The shop that was very helpful all the mechanics were not fans about Tempest plugs or filters.

 

[Jeev]

No I have had mine for about 500 trouble free hours.  Lots of people say Tempest is better than Champion for plugs but I had Champion finewires on my last engine for about 1000 hrs without an issue. However when it came time to get plugs for the new engine I went with Tempest based on bad reviews on the Champions.  I would call Tempest and let them know but it sounds like an isolated issue.   As far as the filters I think they are equivalent and use either one based on what is on sale.  The Tempest filters have a magnet in them to catch ferrious particles but I think that is just a feature they came up with to differiantiate their filters from champion that makes little difference in the real world.  

Glad all went well and your departure ended with excitement and no bent aluminum.  Looking forward to the pics.

SP

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

So has anyone had the center electrode fall out of a Tempest Fine wire?   It caused a bit of excitement on departure today. Purchased November 2016.   Looks like I have about 100 hours on them.  Long day, pictures and details tomorrow.  The shop that was very helpful all the mechanics were not fans about Tempest plugs or filters.

Agree with Jeev...I’m on my second set in as many engines, and have yet to run into a problem.  Can’t remember the details, but someone else here had an issue with a Tempest plug.  They followed up with a rep from Tempest, who replied with a nice note, and replaced the (out of warranty) plug free of charge, no questions asked.

I wouldn’t let one experience cloud your outlook on the product.  I’d love to hear why the mechanics were not fans of the Tempest products, personally.

Steve

[carusoam]

Somebody posted a picture recently where the center anode(?) was missing...

Sounds very familiar... let’s see if we can find that thread.

Best regards,

-a-

[jonhop]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

So has anyone had the center electrode fall out of a Tempest Fine wire?   It caused a bit of excitement on departure today. Purchased November 2016.   Looks like I have about 100 hours on them.  Long day, pictures and details tomorrow.  The shop that was very helpful all the mechanics were not fans about Tempest plugs or filters.

 

Hmm... I just had this exact same problem during my recent post EDM-900 install engine runs... The Tempest fine wires had about 50 hours on them since new. The center electrode was lost on the upper #3 plug. I reported the issue to Tempest, took the attached pictures, and sent the plug to them at their request. They sent a replacement but did not provide any insight into the failure. The subsequent borescope showed no evidence of the electrode but there were a lot of nicks on the cylinder head where the electrode was bouncing around. The cylinder walls showed no damage and the exhaust valve was cleaned of deposits but showed now evidence of damage. I drained and strained the oil with no findings, so I figure the electrode went out with the exhaust.

On another subject, I replaced all eight Champions two annuals ago when my A&P IA recommended that more than half of them be replaced. I was experiencing fouled plugs frequently during runup, even with aggressive ground leaning. The tempest fine wires have not fouled a plug yet in 80+ hours and the mag checks are very close and the engine is very smooth with them. During the last annual before the EDM install, my A&P commented on how clean they were.

Here are my pics of the upper #3 plug...

Edited May 24, 2018 by jonhop

[jonhop]

7 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Somebody posted a picture recently where the center anode(?) was missing...

Sounds very familiar... let’s see if we can find that thread.

Best regards,

-a-

That post was mine @carusoam... I inadvertently deleted that post... Unfortunately, the Admins did not reply to my bug request to undelete the thread but I've responded with the pictures and the outcome of my experience. 

[carusoam]

Thanks, Jon!

I was setting up for a long night of fruitless searching...

Do you have your contact with the Tempest people handy?

I get the feeling @Yetti might want to close the loop with the same person over there...

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

try this guy... Tempest stands behind their products very strongly, unlike most companies who very strongly do not.

johnherman@tempestplus.com

[Yetti]

Thanks @jonhop I would be interested to know about what date you purchased yours. 

1. Departing Midland Airpark on runway 16.  3977 feet
2. About 3:30 PM a bit of a cross and a DA of 5000 per the Awos  Field Elevation of 2800
3. We marveled at the jet that had just departed 7, since it was downwind  5571 feet.
4. Myself and a co worker who is also a pilot with overnight bags, we had flown in for a meeting on Tuesday.
5. FBO had topped off the left tank. This is the first time I had done unattended fuel refilling.
6. We sumped tanks and collator.   I smelled the fuel both at the cap and the fuel sample.
7. We departed gained altitude then the power went way down.   I asked my friend later if I pushed over immediately and he said yes.
8. There is no place to go off the end of 16 So I either had already started my planned turn to the left, or I turned left as I knew there was at least a tank farm to get to
9. He called emergency on the radio as there was another inbound plane.   I was not real aware as I was in fly the plane zone.
10. The engine started making more power but still running rough.
11. I thought about 7 my friend said it was downwind. In retrospect, I probably should have taken it. Power was still ok but not normal
12. We were just over the highway and really close for 16.  Threw the gear down and full flaps.
13. Realized I had some power in pulled it out.
14. Made some radio call about putting it down on 16
15. Over shot to the right, then overshot to the left, did some "pilot stuff" near the ground and landed about mid field pretty much on centerstripe.
16. Rolled to the end taxiway.
17. Engine still running rough.
18. Went back to the ramp and assumed fouled plugs and worked to burn it off.
19. Started running better, but still not right.

 

Epilogue

1. Found very nice mechanics on field.   Talked about full rich and density altitude of 5000 feet was probably the cause.
2. Asked if I could borrow some hanger space to pull the plugs
3. Pulled all the plugs found some balls down low on the lower plugs which are champion REM37BY put in Feb 2017.  Dug out the balls
4. Found the center electrode missing on cylinder 4.  There are tempest fine wires installed November 2016 with about 90 hours on them
5. Replaced plug with new Champion massive that I carry
6. Sumped tanks and colleator again.  Still all 100LL
7. recowled and ran up. Run up was fine
8. Paid for hanger time
9. Ranup and did fast taxi
10. fought a headwind home.  When you are flying the same direction the Wind Turbines are pointed, then there might be a headwind.
11. Thankful for the last BFR where we did a couple push overs when he pulled the throttle.

My coworker decided he had enough for that day and flew home commercial.   There were storms in the Houston area and flights were messed up so I beat him home.

Best I can tell the 4 cylinder went away with a bad plug top and a fouled plug bottom.

Did not have a camera, phone was not recording track, so the flight path on the picture is hand drawn to the best of my recollection. Fly the plane, fly to the most options.

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Yetti

[Hank]

Wow, good job flying the plane, Yetti! You passed your test, and now have some more experience. So far all of my bad running issues have happened on the ground, except for losing a magneto once.

Question from a massive flyer about fine wire plugs:  I thought the favored options were either all fine wire, or massives on top and fine wire for the lower plugs. Yet you have massives on the bottom. Am I confused?

[Igor_U]

You did a great job. what are the odds both spark plugs failed on same cylinder.... I don't have experience with fine wire plugs but have Tempest massive plugs for couple of years now and no issues.

[MARZ]

You may want to bore-scope that cylinder - albeit small, that electrode had to go somewhere - hopefully it was a graceful exit out the exhaust 

[Bob_Belville]

Fine wire plugs are more delicate than massives when it comes to routine servicing. The blasting process used on massives is not appropriate for fine wires. I inspect, check the gap, and check the resistance on my Tempest fine wires. I've never had to do more and the gap is always correct and the resistance is low and consistent. My Tempest fine wires are essential like new at 400 hours. 

I'm not in a position to point fingers but I would be concerned that since your mechanic dislikes fine wire his technician may not respect the proper handling. ISTM a broken electrode is either a factory defect or improper handling.  

[Andy95W]

A lot of "older" mechanics still remember when Tempest bought the old Autolite/Unison line of spark plugs (that's why all the designations start with a "U".). Quality back then was definitely substandard compared to the Champions.  A lot of those mechanics assume that the substandard quality continues to this day, and they assume that transfers to the filters as well.

Too bad they don't realize the tables turned and the Champions are now generally worse than the Tempests.

[Yetti]

16 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Fine wire plugs are more delicate than massives when it comes to routine servicing. The blasting process used on massives is not appropriate for fine wires. I inspect, check the gap, and check the resistance on my Tempest fine wires. I've never had to do more and the gap is always correct and the resistance is low and consistent. My Tempest fine wires are essential like new at 400 hours. 

I'm not in a position to point fingers but I would be concerned that since your mechanic dislikes fine wire his technician may not respect the proper handling. ISTM a broken electrode is either a factory defect or improper handling.  

Well the mechanics that I was talking to were 2.5 Mooney hours away from home base.   The grumpy IA also has a proclivity to not like Tempest.

The plugs have a know history, with personal experience.

1. Purchase Tempest in Nov 2017 from AS, Installed on Top,
2. I installed them from their plastic wrappers.  So no damage there. No drops. Used torque wrench
3. I removed for the Annual in Feb 2017, IA, A&P assistant and I did the compression test.   I reinstalled them.  Went from cylinder to spark plug tray and back to cylinder. Used torque wrench
4. I removed them for the Annual in Feb 2018, IA and I completed compression check of 79 for all cylinders, Rotated and installed.  Bottom Champion plugs not touched.   From cylinder to tray, back to cylinder.  Used torque wrench

[Bob_Belville]

32 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Well the mechanics that I was talking to were 2.5 Mooney hours away from home base.   The grumpy IA also has a proclivity to not like Tempest.

The plugs have a know history, with personal experience.

1. Purchase Tempest in Nov 2017 from AS, Installed on Top, What was the logic to put the fine wire, which resist fouling on top and leave the fouling prone massive on the bottom? Was it Nov. '16? (You mention 2 annuals after purchase of plugs.)
2. snip
3. snip
4. I removed them for the Annual in Feb 2018, IA and I completed compression check of 79 for all cylinders, Rotated and installed.  Bottom Champion plugs not touched.   From cylinder to tray, back to cylinder.  Used torque wrench Torque wrench is good but that should not be a factor, I would not think, in the broken center electrode. Were the plugs cleaned? How? Did you really not service the bottom plugs at the annual? While fine wires usually need little attention, massives generally need cleaning. Resistance and gap should be checked.

See Anthony's disclaimer which I resemble... I'm a pilot, not an A&P.

 

[carusoam]

Yetti,

Were you able to keep the offending plug for further data collection? Serial number and for sending it off to Tempest?

(I’m short on time today, I may have missed it in your writing)

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

In 2016 we put the Champion BY plugs on the bottom they are massives and have the longer electrode than the regular massives to help with oil fouling.   The other A&P said "yep that is a good course for older engines"  I like second opinions for Engines.

This year at annual based on the condition of the Fine wires, compression, and hours flown current running condition,  it was decided that the bottoms did not need to be serviced.  Based on the inspection yesterday, the bottom plugs are still good 3 months after the annual.  So for that part the IA made a good suggestion.

But let's keep the focus on the center electrode falling out of the $76.46 spark plug.

The offending plug is preserved in the plastic sleeve that the new champion came out of.  I forgot to grab it yesterday so it is still in the plane. The packaging method that is used for sparkplugs would seem to be pretty good for preventing damage.

 

 

[Yetti]

So the only recording instrumentation that I had rolling was the fitbit.

Looks like we had a peak heart rate the time of the incident and then the second take off around 5:00.   I do recall being a bit apprehensive about the second take off.   Had done several full power ground runs and a fast taxi.

 

 

[buddy]

I have an O2 and have had to replace 3 fine wire champions in the past 21/2 yrs. that were defective. Next time around I’m going to install Tempest. As for oil filters I use Tempest.

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

In 2016 we put the Champion BY plugs on the bottom they are massives and have the longer electrode than the regular massives to help with oil fouling.   The other A&P said "yep that is a good course for older engines"  I like second opinions for Engines.

This year at annual based on the condition of the Fine wires, compression, and hours flown current running condition,  it was decided that the bottoms did not need to be serviced.  Based on the inspection yesterday, the bottom plugs are still good 3 months after the annual.  So for that part the IA made a good suggestion.

But let's keep the focus on the center electrode falling out of the $76.46 spark plug.

The offending plug is preserved in the plastic sleeve that the new champion came out of.  I forgot to grab it yesterday so it is still in the plane. The packaging method that is used for sparkplugs would seem to be pretty good for preventing damage.

 

 

This is a bit troubling since you bought your plugs roughly when I bought mine. Hopefully, it is not a batch of bad plugs. 

[Tempest]

Good afternoon,

My name is John Herman and I am VP Sales & Marketing with Tempest Aero Group.  I apologize that you had an issue related to our fine wire plugs.  I believe this to be an isolated case, however, we take all cases such as this very seriously.  We strive to manufacture the highest quality products possible and therefore if there is an issue such as this we want to know about it and investigate to assure it never happens again.  In cases like this, it can be one or several factors that caused the problem and to the best of our ability, we will examine the plug and operating environment to determine the root cause.

Please contact me at john@tempestaero.com and we will discuss an arrangement to get the plug sent back to us, as well as send you a set of replacement plugs at no charge as a customer courtesy.

Again, we are dedicated to manufacturing quality products and providing a great customer experience.  I apologize that we have not met these standards in your eyes, but you have my word we will do everything possible to rectify the situation.

Best regards,

John

[N601RX]

I had a plating problem that was cosmetic at the time with a set of tempest fine wire plugs a few years ago and they immediately sent me  a new set.  Although I only needed 8 they sent me a box of 12. Good company with good customer service.  

[Andy95W]

50 minutes ago, Yetti said:

So the only recording instrumentation that I had rolling was the fitbit.

Looks like we had a peak heart rate the time of the incident and then the second take off around 5:00.   I do recall being a bit apprehensive about the second take off.   Had done several full power ground runs and a fast taxi.

 

 

I wonder if @kortopates can effectively analyze this... 

[Marauder]

7 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I wonder if @kortopates can effectively analyze this... 

Looks like FAKE NEWS to me. There is no way a 6'8" Yetti can have a max heart rate of less than 150 during a state of distress! Probably had it attached to his sleeping dog.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Marauder