Quick Question Re Mx Charges

[hnorber]

I recently received an invoice for maintenance that was done on my M20J back in July (the shop had a backlog of paperwork) and I was wondering if anyone might be willing to weigh-in on the reasonableness of the following:

1. Following an engine failure on takeoff, I needed to replace the Wheldon electric fuel pump.   I pointed the shop to an IR shop in Wisconsin that sold rebuilt pumps.  They replacement pump seemed to have some sort of defect in that it was electrically charged and kept tripping my breaker (I think the one in the rocker switch).  Lots of troubleshooting later - they determined the cause and returned the pump for a refund, and sourced a new pump.    The shop is billing me for 38.46 hours of labor at their standard rate for this replacement of the electric fuel pump.    

2. New O-rings for my fuel caps (O&N Bladders on the plane) - sourced for $61 each (and .75 of labor to install).

I think the fuel cap rings may be reasonable (but want to double check) - but I'm having a lot of difficulty with 38+ hours of labor to change the electric fuel pump (even with the electrical gremlins involved).   It'd be good to have some objective data points as I consider my course of action.

I absolutely understand that there are lots of A&P's on this forum, and my goal is not to try to disparage anyone here or to leverage some A&P knowledge against others - I truly want to compensate the shop fairly, but I definitely feel like they're trying to take advantage of the fact that I had no other options on the field (They had told me that it was taking time to run down the electric gremlins - but specific hours were never discussed during the work - I assumed that the total might be closer to 15 hours). 

As an aside - my regular mechanic told me one month later (at annual) that the o-rings needed to be replaced again (not sure whether they used the wrong part - but he sent me pictures showing fraying).

Thanks,

Howard

 

[MB65E]

That’s hard to swollow. Did they use your overhaul shop you recommended? Or did they do their own thing. I would negotiate the troubleshooting time as it sounds like they billed for everything. 

I would make them redo the fuel caps correctly at their cost. 

Typically I budget stopping points with troubleshooting...

1.let me know what you think

2. Keep it under x.xxx figure 

3. Or just fix it I don’t care. 

If it was your idea to oh the pump at said place and there was an issue, I would talk to the Oh shop and raise the stink with them vs the installer. I’ve also had multiple new components fail. I’m a believer in overhauling things vs just buying new parts. At least there is a known equation with the OH..good or bad.

Either way, sounds like there could have been better communication. 

-Matt

[N201MKTurbo]

It would take me about 4 hours to R&R the fuel pump. You owe him some time for ordering it, receiving it, troubleshooting the problem and R&R it again.

it does seem like a lot, but I wasn't there so I don't know how much time was spent on it.

[jetdriven]

Did the 38 hours include an annual with expected repairs? If so, you still got ripped off. The electric pump is a 3-4 hour job, with coffee and paperwork too. Wow! Again I wish people would out shops like this, I'd like to hear both sides of the story, but this sounds over the waterfall crazy.

Edited April 3, 2018 by jetdriven

[Marauder]

And for the caps, you didn't mention which caps you have. The old style Shaw caps (red ones) or the new style (brushed aluminum). If it was the Shaw caps, I would be curious how they replaced those O rings. They aren't really O rings. They hook underneath the lip. If it was the new style caps, the O ring kit cannot be that expensive. Certainly not $61 per side. If you have the new style caps, call Grigg's directly and ask how much the O ring kits are. I would be surprised they are more than $20. 

[jaylw314]

Yikes.  I don't know about the time replacing the fuel pump, but I have a hard time with a shop not giving you estimates and updating you about unusual labor/time.

It sounds like you took delivery of the plane and flew it for a while before discovering the problem with the pump.  I'm guessing this means there is no legal recourse since the shop could simply say something happened after the installation, so you're left just trying to negotiate the cost down.

In my working logbook that I give to shops, I actually have a front page that says in bold letters "No inspections or repair work authorized unless written estimates are approved by owner."  I know it's not protection, but it doesn't hurt.

[jetdriven]

A mechanic's lien is only valid if they have had unbroken possession of the aircraft, just saying.

[hnorber]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Did the 38 hours include an annual with expected repairs? If so, you still got ripped off. The electric pump is a 3-4 hour job, with coffee and paperwork too. Wow! Again I wish people would out shops like this, I'd like to hear both sides of the story, but this sounds over the waterfall crazy.

No.   He 38 hours was solely to replace the pump and troubleshoot the electric gremlin that kept popping he circuit.

 

31 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

A mechanic's lien is only valid if they have had unbroken possession of the aircraft, just saying.

Thanks.  Hope it doesn’t get to that level of discussion!

[jetdriven]

It’s a simple circuit. Power goes to the aux bus bar that the pump switch is on. Through the circuit-breaker switch to the pump and it’s grounded there. 

[Yetti]

Remove old and install new pump 4 hours.

New pump blows CB

Remove and install new and new pump 4 hours

Test it performs good.   Paperwork  and ordering and shipping 4 hours max.

There was a guy selling Fuel cap oring kits for say $13.00 with the fancy florsilicone o rings.    Takes about 10 minutes a side to replace and adjust tension.  10 minutes to do paperwork.

Just a PP I think the IA and me total spent 38 hours on the Annual this year.

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Yetti

[jetdriven]

Those 13$  o-rings  won’t fit a bladder cap. They’re larger.  After you cut the old one off like me you find this out Then pay 100$ for a set.  I can see that but I can’t see 38 hours labor, unless t came with an engine R&R, including transferring the prop,  all the accessories, and hoses. . You know we just did that in about that much time. 

Edited April 4, 2018 by jetdriven

[RLCarter]

Hopefully they forgot the decimal, 3.8 would be more in line from what others are saying

[Mooney in Oz]

6 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Hopefully they forgot the decimal, 3.8 would be more in line from what others are saying

I agree with RLC.  A few months ago during my annual I asked for a dynamic prop balance.  When I received the bill that part of the job was $2800 (AUD), although they did not actually do the balance, it was a neighbouring shop that had the appropriate equipment.  I contacted my shop and brought it to their notice.  The owner apologised and said it should have read $280, an obvious mistake that was rectified.

Don't jump to any conclusions, just give them a call and discuss.  Mistakes happen. 

[Yetti]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Those 13$  o-rings  won’t fit a bladder cap. They’re larger.  After you cut the old one off like me you find this out Then pay 100$ for a set.  I can see that but I can’t see 38 hours labor, unless t came with an engine R&R, including transferring the prop,  all the accessories, and hoses. . You know we just did that in about that much time. 

Has anyone figured out the oring size of the bigger Shaw caps?  I mean after all it is an oring.  They even make oring splicing kits that cost less than that.

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Yetti

[steingar]

I hate to say it, but a mechanic can spend some serious time chasing gremlins.  The avionics guy working on mine spent 40 hours chasing an electrical gremlin in my radios.  Turned out the gremlin resided in the new radio that he recommended, so I didn't have to pay for it.  That said, had the gremlin come from a part that I specified or supplied, I'd be on the hook for it.

[thinwing]

This happens a lot when the mechanic after replacing with a new overhauled pump finds it still blowing breakers and becomes convinced it couldn't be the fuel pump again!...so he goes looking for a wiring or switch short....usually what is done is a complaint about excessive trouble shooting without approval gets negotiated down to about half

[M20F]

I just did a major overhaul of an IO360 for 32hrs of labor so yes would say excessive.  The hours are just for the engine work.

I did the removal/reinstall separate.