looking to travel west

[Dream to fly]

Looking to travel to the west coast this summer.  But have never climbed the mountains before.  Any suggestions on how to get from ND to the coast?  I really didn't want to go via Texas.  I'm also not sure the plane could climb out that high being naturally aspirated.  I've never needed to go that high.   I do have an oxygen system and by next month I should have a working functional panel with 2 GPS units.

[carusoam]

There have been a couple people that have detailed their cross country trips...

There is a lot of freedom with an M20F.  Under most conditions the altitudes aren’t impossible.

Some may require thinking about departure and arrival times.  Morning flights are usually the best.

Do you want to get some mountain flying training experience?  Landing at really high DA airports like... Leadville 

Do you have a few cities selected already?

@Jim Peace has taken his C across a couple of times...

http://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/2014/08/10-highest-airports-in-the-united-states/

Patrick reminds us how important Density altitude is in our take Off performance calculations...

patrick also flew his J across the US and got it painted on the West Coast at Art Craft....

Great memories in the making...

-a-

[Dream to fly]

Just looking at the maps with the wife.  Definitely will need to find some mountain training.  I am very familiar with DA and the possible badness that can happen from a missed calculation.    We are contemplating riding the bike or flying since we have two weeks plus and I was thinking flying would be a new chapter.  But after looking at the west coast sectionals and all the military restricted airspace it almost seems more fun to fly commercial.    I only have 250+ hours VFR and I know my limits.    KHZE-KRWL-KRIF-KSMO   There is a lot of nothing between me and the coast.

[carusoam]

Do you use flight following?  

This would make that nothingness and restricted airspace more than manageable.

If no, some practice using flight following would be great!

Best regards,

-a-

[Dream to fly]

3 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Do you use flight following?  

This would make that nothingness and restricted airspace more than manageable.

If no, some practice using flight following would be great!

Best regards,

-a-

Yes I do.... 

[Hank]

Joe, just plan it out with some fun / interesting stops. I flew  ynwife from WV to Yellowstone as a VFR guy with about 200 hiurs in my logbook. It was 1300+ nm each way, and we had three vacations in one: the trip out including a stop at Mt. Rushmore; several days in Yellowstone; and a flight home. There was one unplanned stop each way, a several-hour lunch waiting for it to clear up ahead, and an early stop coming home.

It's just a series of short, 3 hour cross countries that ends up across the country.    Flight following all the way, except a short spell in the western Dakotas where I  dropped off radar at 8500 msl westbound. 

[MIm20c]

9 minutes ago, Dream to fly said:

 There is a lot of nothing between me and the coast.

I’m surprised you think that. On my MC I feel ND is the dividing line between some of the best riding in the country and a whole lot of flat nothingness. Same goes for flying and the scenery/safety minded challenges it provides.  I hope to get my C out to the mountains ASAP.  Have a great time, however you get out there. 

[carusoam]

Some people have done preliminary planning and posted screenshots on MS. Get started with your favorite app...FF or WingX or Big G...

When the weather is nice, the amount of planning can be pretty light.  The heavy planning is more the details required for the next flight.

Always have a plan B and C ready to go.  Because you can.

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Important question(s)...

two bikes or one?

One Cruiser or two sport bikes?

Fly to the west coast, and rent a cruiser to travel the PCH... this would be really different.

PP thoughts only, I haven’t been riding since I was in HS... too crowded in my part of the east coast. Too few bikes around.  Many drivers don’t see you, or expect to look for you out here...

Best regards,

-a-

[AlexLev]

I'm thinking of flying from Buffalo, NY to California sometime this year and also curious on some of the best routes for my M20G. Anyone's that made similar trips, I'd love to know some good routing for an M20G.

[N201MKTurbo]

Head to Rawlings Wy. And then west towards grand junction.

It is the lowest and smoothest route across the Rockies. And it is not out of your way.

KHZE DDY CKW VEL FFU MMM BLD HEC KSNA

[carusoam]

Cut and pasted Rich’s route into WingX...

Fastest X-country planning i’ve Ever done.  

My trip back from the Mooney summit was similar. A lot of cut, reverse, and paste... and used flight following the whole way!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Steve W]

As was mentioned, be more creative with your routes. I did Denver to Western Oregon without needing to be above 10000. Sure, it will add a few miles, but at the end of the day a little dogleg here, a little turn there will probably only add a few percent on an 1100 NM trip. KHZE KCPR U96 KSBD KSMO adds about 40NM and drops the highest terrain from 11000 to under 9000.

Also, fuel is your friend, Mooney speed combined with enough fuel allows circumnavigating unexpected weather and other things that pop up in flight. Also, if you don't have it, I highly recommend buying or borrowing Oxygen. Sometimes the difference between a horrible ride and a nice smooth one means that 2000 feet higher that you'll need Oxygen for.

As one of my friends who was in the Navy likes to say, no plan survives contact with the enemy. Just because you've meticulously planned the flight expect it all to go to hell about 5 minutes after you take off. In my case when I bought the Mooney, my first stop after flying through Texas was supposed to be cheap fuel at an airport in New Mexico, due to unexpected crosswinds I ended up at El Paso with a favorable runway alignment. Then through NM and AZ my nicely planned route was shot to hell due to weather(and would have been much nicer if I had an Oxygen tank).

[gsxrpilot]

This looks like a great trip and I don't see anything to be concerned about. Your F should easily do 16,000 if you had to. But it will certainly cruise between 13K and 14K. I flew all over those mountains in my M20C and you've got 20hp on me.

As @carusoam and @Steve W have said, fuel is a huge benefit but can also be a liability. I always think twice about how much fuel I take onboard if I'm at a highish altitude airport on a high DA time/day. So make sure you've got enough runway and terrain clearance to get off the ground for the load you're carrying. Secondly, having plenty of fuel gives you options. You can easily divert around the mountains to stay over the valleys. You can divert around weather, turbulence, etc. The efficiency of our Mooneys often gives us options that other airplanes could never have.

Flying VFR is nice in that you can follow the terrain. I would flight plan the best route I could for terrain, but once in the air and looking around, you can find ways to cut corners safely because you can see your actual options. 

Flying in the mountain west is fun because you don't just go in a straight line. The terrain has something to say about it.

[1964-M20E]

I did a similar thing last year when I went to Idaho falls for work.  A 100% flat lander before I went.  DA definitely will play a role when flying especially if you leave later in the day.  Flying my F by myself sometimes it seamed like it would never start flying and that was at 4700 field elevation DA around 8000.  Just be ready for longer takeoff rolls and slower climb rates.  I ended up making it out to Portland area and over the Pacific.  Yeah I've flown my F over the Atlantic, Gulf of Mexico and Pacific.

To get an idea go up to 8000 feet put the gear down and slow down to minimum controllable airspeed then accelerate and start climbing.  This will give you some idea of what it will be like.

Looks like the route you chose will give you a nice route with no more that 10500 or 12500 altitudes.  I went thorough pretty much in the same location by Rock Springs.

As for mountain flying read up on the issues around it and be very cautious and always have an out when you are flying when the peaks rise above your altitude.  Also keep in mind should you find yourself in a canyon that is getting narrow turn around sooner rather than later and slow down for the turn you can get a much tighter turn radius if you slow to 80 or 90mph IAS.  Also you may have to put one wing tip very close to the trees before making the turn. Sit down with an instructor who has mountain experience before hand.  I did go to a seminar once I was there and there was a lady from Mackay ID talking about mountain flying she was very informative.  She does a 4 day class but that is teaching you how to get in and out of the backwoods strips that you will never go into in a Mooney.  However, I guess that would be good training for emergency landings.

Coming home I went further south just north of Santa Fe my buddy wanted to land at Telluride with field elevation of 9000.  Very interesting.

Good luck I'm no expert at mountain flying though I did stay at a holiday in express once and I flew within a few miles of the Grand Tetons mountains.

 

[kpaul]

Try this route  KHZE KRWL KCNY KPGA KGCN  KSMO, It keeps you from crossing the ranges in Utah and since you were in the area, overfly the Grand Canyon.

I grew up flying in Montana.  I was in and out of West Yellowstone in a C172 as a teenager, beautiful area as other have mentioned.  

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, kpaul said:

Try this route  KHZE KRWL KCNY KPGA KGCN  KSMO, It keeps you from crossing the ranges in Utah and since you were in the area, overfly the Grand Canyon.

I grew up flying in Montana.  I was in and out of West Yellowstone in a C172 as a teenager, beautiful area as other have mentioned.  

This is basically the route I take between AZ and SoDak.  KRWL to KCNY to KPGA and then the Grand Canyon is some of the most beautiful terrain you'll ever see from an airplane.   It is an awesome trip.   KCNY is a good fuel stop.

[Seth]

I flew east coast to west coast and back twice.  Once in my 1967 M20F in 2010 and once in my 1983 M20J Missile 300.  I'm based at GAI in MD just NW of Washington, DC.

For both trips, I travelled west via North Carolina (2010), Atlanta, Alabama (2010), Texas, Arizona (2010)/NM(2013), and then Southern California (San Diego 2013, Los Angeles Both).  San Francisco/Wine country (2013). I travelled up to Portland Oregon both times.  In 2010 I then flew to Bozeman Montana before continuing to Rapid City for Mount Rushmore.  I visited Quentin Annenson Field in Luverne, MN to pay tribute to an old friend, mentor, and WWII fighter pilot who had passed - they renamed the field after him.  I then visited Minneapolis/St. Paul as well before Chicago and then back to the East Coast.  In 2013, I continued from Portland to  Seattle, then Wyoming, then Minneapolis, then Chicago and home.

In 2013 I had 300 HP in the Missile and portable Oxygen on board.  That made a BIG difference.  I flew as high as 17,500 feet.  

In 2010 I had NO oxygen on board.  I was suffering from acute hypoxia at 12,400 feet for a stretch there between Portland and Bozeman.

In 2010 I used paper charts.  By 2013 I had an ipad - HUGE Difference.  Situational awareness today will be even better.  

When used to flying over populated areas in the east half of the country, there's an entirety of beuty and untouched land in the west - it is sparsly if at all populated for hundreds of miles in many directions.  If you have a problem, you must have a plan and be prepared.

-Make sure you have a portable Oxygen system - it will help for safety, if you have to climb, to top weather or mountains, and gets you to smoother air at times.  It will also help you just cruising at 11,000 feet.

-Have a CO monitor - at altitude it will effect you more and you may need heat at those altitudes.

-Have a portable 406MH ELT transmitter - you can get one for not much and it's great insurance - especially if you leave the airplane.

-Survival supplies 3 plus days of water, food, warm clothing, first aid, maybe a handheld CB radio and of course a handheld aviation radio (to communicate with search and rescue).  Survival tools (knife, multi tool, etc) as well.

-Beautiful scenery - bring a camera!

-Check in with someone you trust at every stop so they are aware of when you should be at your next stop.  Thus if you go missing they can alert search and rescue.

-Get training, read up on, whatever learn the signs of mountain flying, mountain waves (I got some of those) how to approach and go through a pass (angled), practice a high gross weight low speed turn so if you get boxed in a bad situation you can make the 180.  

-Always have your outs.

Both trips were GREAT.  I admit, now that I have two young children, I'm not sure if I would make the trip in the same fashion as I did then.  Maybe I'd follow highways more closely, make the trip a bit longer to be in better gliding distance of towns and airparks vs straight lines.  

It's a WONDERFUL thing to do - have a blast! 

 

-Seth

[RobertGary1]

I cross the Sierras at 14,00-16,000 feet in my F all the time at gross. Takes a bit to get their but its no problem.

I generally use whatever route is direct moving around TFRs and hot restricteds.

 

-Robert

Edited March 5, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Bob - S50]

13 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Just looking at the maps with the wife.  Definitely will need to find some mountain training.  I am very familiar with DA and the possible badness that can happen from a missed calculation.    We are contemplating riding the bike or flying since we have two weeks plus and I was thinking flying would be a new chapter.  But after looking at the west coast sectionals and all the military restricted airspace it almost seems more fun to fly commercial.    I only have 250+ hours VFR and I know my limits.    KHZE-KRWL-KRIF-KSMO   There is a lot of nothing between me and the coast.

A couple things.

1.  When in doubt, go IFF (I Follow Freeways).  They are usually cut through the lowest passes.  Go to Billings and then follow I90 to Seattle for example.  Or down to Rawlins and then follow I80 to San Francisco.  Or I80 to Salt Lake and then I15 to Los Angeles.  Just examples of course.

2.  Most, but not all of those airspaces are MOA's, not restricted areas.  Many of them have bases that allow you to fly under them.  Plan the route you would like, then check for the altitudes for any MOA's you'll pass through.  You may be able to go under it.  If not, just plan around it.  Also, many of them are rarely active so you may be able to fly through them without fear of getting hit, but you won't know until the day of your flight so have a backup plan.

3.  Enjoy the scenery.

[RobertGary1]

To state the obvious. from my frequent crossings...

1) There is no IMC flying in the Sierras because there is no ice escape. 

2) Never fly up a canyon. In fact, in a Mooney there is never a reason to be below the general terrain. Perhaps there may be a peak above you 30 miles away but otherwise you should be well above all that. 

3) There is no need to cross ridges so low that you need to do that 45 degree crossing silliness. Just do what SouthWest does, go high. If you're flying a Cessna 150 the story would be different.

4) You may bump your head. Turb is pretty much the norm.

 

-Robert

[EricJ]

40 minutes ago, Seth said:

I visited Quentin Annenson Field in Luverne, MN to pay tribute to an old friend, mentor, and WWII fighter pilot who had passed - they renamed the field after him. 

I saw "A Fighter Pilot's Story" many years ago and it totally changed my view of WWII.   I was glad he did that project and I wish it was still more widely available. 

[Seth]

17 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I saw "A Fighter Pilot's Story" many years ago and it totally changed my view of WWII.   I was glad he did that project and I wish it was still more widely available. 

Great man.  My father and grandfather worked closely with Quentin in his post WWII career.  I only got to know him as an older man, however I quickly realized his special nature.  His widow just passed a few month ago.

-Seth

Edited March 5, 2018 by Seth

[Joe Zuffoletto]

These flights are more than doable. Years ago I flew an Archer II from Napa to Minneapolis VFR roughly via Idaho Falls, Jackson, WY, Sheridan, WY and then on east. Only had to top 10,000' once, to cross the Tetons, but I could have even avoided that if I wanted to.

[Dream to fly]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

Important question(s)...

two bikes or one?

One Cruiser or two sport bikes?

Fly to the west coast, and rent a cruiser to travel the PCH... this would be really different.

PP thoughts only, I haven’t been riding since I was in HS... too crowded in my part of the east coast. Too few bikes around.  Many drivers don’t see you, or expect to look for you out here...

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry for the delayed post...  Been towing the weather here turned real ugly last night....   Thank you to all that posted.  I am going to check into a couple of routes.  As for the bike I love traveling by MC.  I have a 08 Road king that has been to Laguna Beach CA, Montauk PT NY,  Seattle WA, Galvaston TX, and even Canada by the international peace gardens.  However now that I have a plane it seems that I should be using the hell out of it!  If Weather is not getting in the way being VFR, it is work or family commitments and its getting old. 

My concerns are that being a low time pilot flying where I do, I have less practice getting into and out of the really high traffic areas.  Fargo, Bismarck even Minneapolis are not hard to do.  The New York trip I made last summer was a blast but I was mentally exhausted afterwards.  I need to have a reason for trips I hate just flying, it was the same with the MC.  If I took the bike out it had to be a minimum of 250+ miles.  I feel like if I am going to get the plane out and ready it needs to go and go far not puddle jump.   I hope to post a picture of the new toys I bought tomorrow if all goes well with UPS deliveries.  They should make flying a little more fun

The other issue is getting my IFR ticket.  That is key to traveling but I am finding that to be more difficult than I anticipated. 

Sometimes this plane thing seems to be more of a job than an adventure or enjoyment.  I just have to figure out how to balance all of this.