Correct battery

[Larry]

I have a later 201 serial #24-3149.  It was delivered from Mooney without a battery box using a Gill243 manifold vented battery.  The problem is that Concorde, Gill, the TCDS and the Parts manual all call for serial numbers between 3000 - 3200 to have a battery box and a Gill 242.  Has anyone else had this issue?  If so, how did you handle it?

Thanks,

Larry

[carusoam]

Sounds like something your mechanic can handle.  He can make the call to get the proper battery.

Battery box requires one type of battery.

No battery box requires a different type of construction for the battery.

Concorde makes both types...

What keeps you from buying the same type that is mounted in your plane already, the errant POH data indicating the wrong battery type?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[StevenL757]

I would defer to Mooney.  Put in a call to them referencing your findings, and ask their opinion.  Granted, their answer may not be the cheapest one, but you’ll have the “official” word from which to base a decision...whether your options are buying the same model battery as you have presently (as Anthony states), or adding the battery box as the Parts manual shows so you have more battery options available to you.

Seems to me that adding a battery box simply to have another battery option(s) available to you adds unnecessary weight when you could put another 243 in, but you’re right to call out the inconsistency in your findings.  Let us know how it goes.

Steve

[Larry]

There are several 201s that have the same issue.  I'm hoping that someone has already been down this road.  I try to keep things legal. I don't want to deal with a sharp eyed IA one of these annuals and have problems.

I've emailed Mooney, I don't know how long they take to answer.

Larry

[Yetti]

Concorde had a listing on their page of what was needed to put one of their batteries in a Mooney.   It may shed some light.   Some needed an STC.  Some were covered under the original TDS.

[Larry]

The listing on Concordes website only shows 28 volt with a serial number above 3200.  It doesn't address my SN.  I have a call into Concorde engineering, maybe they have a work around.  Anyone with a 1989-1990 J probably has the same issue.

[carusoam]

Over the years a few MSers have maintained good contact with people in the Mooney factory.  The Mooney service group used to have a member here.

It might be possible that @mooneygirl would know who Best to contact at Mooney to get the paper snafu straightened out.

There must be a service bulletin or something that covers this challenge.  

I don’t think anyone would want to install a battery box to be legal.  Plenty of people want to maintain their legal status.

Great technical challenge!  You have all the details nicely organized.

If nothing else, a call to your favorite MSC can net an answer.  One MSC in TX knows all the technical answers on the planet.  The other MSC knows every part and substitute that goes in a Mooney, Lasar.com...

Like you, I suspect there is a known answer that goes with this question.  Don’t fear calling the big guns to get an answer.  They usually only charge for mistakes you make, not the paper ones they have made... 

Let us know what you find...

Best regards,

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

9 hours ago, Larry said:

The listing on Concordes website only shows 28 volt with a serial number above 3200.  It doesn't address my SN.  I have a call into Concorde engineering, maybe they have a work around.  Anyone with a 1989-1990 J probably has the same issue.

Mooney M20J's have been 28v since serial number 3000 (1987 and on). A Concorde 24-15M has the spot for the vent hose that you have on the G243 and fits in the exact same footprint. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/rg24-15m.php

The Concorde 24-11M will work also but for the difference it's worth it to do the -15 since you get more cranking power.

Friends don't let friends put Gill batteries in their Mooneys. Concordes last at least twice as long.

[carusoam]

I think @INA201 might be interested in reading through this thread...

battery box vs. no battery box...

Best regards,

-a-

[INA201]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

I think @INA201 might be interested in reading through this thread...

battery box vs. no battery box...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for the heads up. My IA is not signing off until I get a serviceable box. I’m 24-0578 and not aware of another option but I certainly would rather buy a battery then a new box. If anyone finds a better option please let me know. 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, INA201 said:

Thanks for the heads up. My IA is not signing off until I get a serviceable box. I’m 24-0578 and not aware of another option but I certainly would rather buy a battery then a new box. If anyone finds a better option please let me know. 

Battery boxes were to protect your airframe from "wet" cell batteries. There is no need for the box with the new sealed RG batteries as long as you have them secured down properly. What this would teach me is that next year I need a new IA. 

[INA201]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Battery boxes were to protect your airframe from "wet" cell batteries. There is no need for the box with the new sealed RG batteries as long as you have them secured down properly. What this would teach me is that next year I need a new IA. 

How do I find the referenced legality of not replacing the box and strapping a sealed battery in?  Thanks for your input too BTW.

[LANCECASPER]

20 minutes ago, INA201 said:

How do I find the referenced legality of not replacing the box and strapping a sealed battery in?  Thanks for your input too BTW.

I would call Mooney. They do this on their new airplanes. They may be able to provide some guidance.

[carusoam]

One of the ‘oddities’ of our airplanes is that they are legally updateable to the latest factory standards for the specific airframe.

So, you have an M20J.  Over the years, some modifications were made to the newer ones coming out of the factory.

Essentially an older airframe can be brought up to a newer standard by using the factory parts and following the factory procedures. If able....

this makes bolt-on updates a great idea in some cases.  Some updates are not practical because it may require changing the tube structure of the airframe....

You would have to see if a dry cell battery could fit in the old battery box... 

In the Case of Mooney batteries, some battery locations moved from being on the firewall, until they moved to the tail...

If you want to just replace your battery box or get some used parts to update to the later standard...

We have two resources dealing in used Mooney parts...

@acpartswhse and @Alan Fox

An MSC can help determine the direction you want to take from parts swap to complete update. They can also source a completely new battery box if desired. Lasar.com is always helpful.

@M20Doc is often a great resource for explaining the route some of his customers have gone.

 

These are only Private pilot ideas. Not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[N231BN]

If the aircraft received it's airworthiness certificate with the G-243 installed it is approved and you need a new IA.

[jaylw314]

Can an A&P sign off on removing a battery box as a "minor modification"?  I don't know if there's anything in AC 43.13 about battery boxes that might constitute "acceptable data"

[Alan Fox]

4 hours ago, carusoam said:

One of the ‘oddities’ of our airplanes is that they are legally updateable to the latest factory standards for the specific airframe.

So, you have an M20J.  Over the years, some modifications were made to the newer ones coming out of the factory.

Essentially an older airframe can be brought up to a newer standard by using the factory parts and following the factory procedures. If able....

this makes bolt-on updates a great idea in some cases.  Some updates are not practical because it may require changing the tube structure of the airframe....

You would have to see if a dry cell battery could fit in the old battery box... 

In the Case of Mooney batteries, some battery locations moved from being on the firewall, until they moved to the tail...

If you want to just replace your battery box or get some used parts to update to the later standard...

We have two resources dealing in used Mooney parts...

@acpartswhse and @Alan Fox

An MSC can help determine the direction you want to take from parts swap to complete update. They can also source a completely new battery box if desired. Lasar.com is always helpful.

@M20Doc is often a great resource for explaining the route some of his customers have gone.

 

These are only Private pilot ideas. Not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

Not without an STC or field approval...  Example , you cant put sculpted tips on a 77 J without an STC   (legally) , you cant upgrade to electric gear , without an STC (legally) 

[jetdriven]

Why do you need an STC to put parts on the airplane when those parts are in the parts catalog? The IO360A3B6 is a different engine than the D. Yet no STC for that. 

I don’t think you need an STC for most parts originally installed on the same mode of airplane, it’s already type certificated. 

[MB65E]

Intresting topic! I would not consider changing from a battery box or not to be a major change (337) from the TCDs. I would sign off somthing battery box or not as long as the installation was correct. 

Does the J have the same TCDS approval number as the straight m20A-G? 

Changing the state of the aircraft after it left the factory has always been intresting. 

-Matt

[INA201]

I bought a battery box thanks to @Bob.  I called Lasar, Concorde, and Acpartswhse. The simplest solution was to just replace it vs trying to find out all of the options and then have to buy a new gel battery. However, I do think I will replace the acid battery with a gel 35-axc this fall.  

[INA201]

39 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

On my J at least the auxiliary power plug is mounted to the top of the battery box, which would make it a real pain to remove. 

Too bad, though, because as a Concorde devotee I would love to get rid of it if that is a possibility.

Just FYI, the “extra capacity” version of the Concorde battery may require a W&B adjustment whereas the “regular” version may not. I have found the regular capacity version to be more than sufficient. 

Jim

Looks like it’s a 2.5 lbs more so not a lot.

[jetdriven]

On 2/27/2018 at 10:28 PM, Yetti said:

Concorde had a listing on their page of what was needed to put one of their batteries in a Mooney.   It may shed some light.   Some needed an STC.  Some were covered under the original TDS.

some people have weighted the actual battery that came out and the actual battery that went in and it was around 1lb.  listed weight and actual sometimes differ, evidently.

[Alan Fox]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Why do you need an STC to put parts on the airplane when those parts are in the parts catalog? The IO360A3B6 is a different engine than the D. Yet no STC for that. 

I don’t think you need an STC for most parts originally installed on the same mode of airplane, it’s already type certificated. 

Been down that road , If its not originally installed on the plane , or authorized by the manufacturer in an stc or SB , it aint legal..

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Why do you need an STC to put parts on the airplane when those parts are in the parts catalog? The IO360A3B6 is a different engine than the D. Yet no STC for that. 

I don’t think you need an STC for most parts originally installed on the same mode of airplane, it’s already type certificated. 

The IO360A3B6 does not need any STC, it's listed as an option in the TCDS for the M20J.  The battery issue is not listed as an option for that serial number, though

[jaylw314]

2 minutes ago, Alan Fox said:

Been down that road , If its not originally installed on the plane , or authorized by the manufacturer in an stc or SB , it aint legal..

Any A&P can make a "minor modification" with just a log entry.  The debate is what a "minor modification", but they do not require any STC or authorization from the manufacturer.

IIRC, "minor modification" is anything that would not be expected to substantially affect the flight characteristics, structure, controls or any systems, and the modifications have to based on "acceptable data" (as in AC43.19).  Anything else is a "major modification," that requires a 337 and needs to be based on "Approved data" (as in an STC or TCDS).  I don't remember the exact wording though. 

I read this as changing a battery for a similar sized and performing battery of the same voltage would be a minor modification.  The battery box is a trickier question, though--I'd read removing the battery box as not expected to affect the structure or electrical system.