Autopilot avionics update.

[Bob - S50]

I went to the NW aviation trade show in Puyallup today looking for information.  Here is what I learned:

1.  Neither Trio nor TruTrak were there so I have nothing to report on them.

2.  KI300.  Surprise, shipping delayed until April 2018 due to software changes to handle turbulence better.  Approximate price for the model to replace our KI256 in a two axis KFC200 autopilot system will be about $6500.  It will actually be two boxes.  The display includes the backup battery and has a 9 pin connector and connections for pitot and static lines.  The second box connects to the indicator via the 9 pin connector.  The other end of that box connects to the KFC200 and GPS navigator.  He estimates less than a day to install.

3.  Dynon Skyview HDX.  Still my favorite if it's available in time.  They have submitted all the paperwork to the FAA for the STC for Cessna's.  Just waiting for the FAA to give approval.  Unable to provide a timeline as to when the system might be available for other aircraft.  I think he said it takes about 6 to 18 months to get an STC for another aircraft.  That won't happen until they have approval for the Cessna.  Based on the catalog he gave me, I'd estimate parts for a Skyview HDX 7" display based system to be about $10,900 for a two axis system.  Another $750, or $11,650 for two axis plus autotrim.  And another $750 or $12,400 for three axis plus autotrim.  That includes a 7" display, primary and secondary AHRS, GPS antenna/receiver, ARINC429 box to talk to our GTN650, backup battery, autopilot control panel, 3 knob HDG/ALT/BARO bug panel, Wi-Fi adapter for use with ForeFlight, servos, and D10A backup EFIS.

If you want to display traffic and weather on the main display, the dual channel ADS-B receiver is $795.  If you want AOA with a heated pitot, that's $450.  If you want their Comm radio, that's $1295 (pretty neat; can be loaded from the main display with buttons for ATIS, Ground, Tower, and ATC).  If you want the bigger 10" display, that's another $1300.  If the main display quits you fly off the D10A.  If your GPS navigator (our GTN650) quits, you can still navigate and fly with the autopilot using the built in GPS system.  You can also add engine monitoring if you want.  About $1300 for parts plus $200 for fuel flow if you want it.  Extra for MP and RPM.  And if you don't already have ADS-B OUT, you can get that for another $2200.  Very flexible system.

Things it does that the GFC500 doesn't:  Synthetic Vision (if you are into that) with terrain warning coloring, moving map, true airspeed, winds, minimums bug, maps, charts, and velocity vector.

4.  Garmin GFC500.  Nice system.  Probably the nicest servos.  Assuming everything I was told is correct:  If you install the GFC500 with a single G5, the G5 is installed as the HSI.  That means you may also switch it over to ADI if you need to.  In a single G5 system, if the G5 dies you also lose the autopilot.  If the GPS navigator fails, the autopilot still works for heading and altitude hold but it cannot navigate.  In a dual G5 system, if at least one of the G5's is working, the autopilot will still work.  Based on prices on Sarasota Avionics, a single G5/GFC500/2 axis system will cost $8149.  Add the autotrim and you are up to $9849.  Add yaw dampener and you're up to an estimated $11,549.  If you want a two G5 system that's $10,889/$12,589/ and $14,289 respectively.  The representative could not confirm when they would gain approval for either Mooney or Bonanza.  However, other sources indicate 2018 for Bonanza and 2019 for Mooney.

That is all.

Bob

[LANCECASPER]

18 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

2.  KI300.  Surprise, shipping delayed until April 2018 due to software changes to handle turbulence better.  Approximate price for the model to replace our KI256 in a two axis KFC200 autopilot system will be about $6500.  It will actually be two boxes.  The display includes the backup battery and has a 9 pin connector and connections for pitot and static lines.  The second box connects to the indicator via the 9 pin connector.  The other end of that box connects to the KFC200 and GPS navigator.  He estimates less than a day to install.

That's interesting . . .  a week ago Sarasota Avionics moved their date from 1st quarter 2018 to 3rd quarter 2018.

[Andy95W]

So, when the KI-300 is finally released, should it be considered brand-new technology or a long-in-the tooth 3 year old that is practically the same generation as an Aspen?  

[Steve W]

The KI300 is basically the Sandia SAI340 with a converter to hook it to your King Autopilot. So, I'd consider it old crufty technology... Better than nothing if you want to keep your KAP/KFC working and don't want to switch to an Aspen or G500.

[Chris from PA]

Thanks for the pirep. The next few years promise to be interesting for those of us in need of an autopilot, engine monitor, ADS-B solution, etc.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

8 hours ago, Steve W said:

The KI300 is basically the Sandia SAI340 with a converter to hook it to your King Autopilot. So, I'd consider it old crufty technology... Better than nothing if you want to keep your KAP/KFC working and don't want to switch to an Aspen or G500.

The cost of that thing plus the cost of maintaining a King autopilot I don’t see the economy in it. I mean for 12-13k you can get the G5, G500 and all. Then have a modern autopilot with more features.  

[MIm20c]

Great info, my guess would be

TruTrak- certified about the same time as the stec. Will benefit from an Aspen interface. Priced around 10 amu with a local IA installation and the necessary Aspen unlock. NO pitch trim available.

Stec- probably around 14 amu installed if upgrading a current stec. Very nice system but reusing old servos. 

Garmin - with dual g5’s The 500 AP and required Garmin dealer install I’m guessing 17-18 amu installed. Very nice upgrade that has pitch trim. 

Full Dynon - probably certified with AP a year after Garmin does.  Cost for a decked out big screen system installed at a specialized dealer around 30+ amu.  Not sure about pitch trim or overall performance of the AP system. 

[MIm20c]

13 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The cost of that thing plus the cost of maintaining a King autopilot I don’t see the economy in it. I mean for 12-13k you can get the G5, G500 and all. Then have a modern autopilot with more features.  

I wonder if BK will ever lower the price on AP parts/servos/screens to entice people to continue using BK avionics?  They lack any new products to offer GA right now and it might gain back some brand support. 

[jetdriven]

Not only do they refuse to lower prices, they actually raise prices and  make impossible for dealers to service the components (they want you to ship it all back to the factory now) and they discontinue everything all the screens are discontinued. KX155 repairs are discontinued. KLN GPS screens are discontinued and everything like that. I know they offer the KT74 and the screens are too dim to read often, but why even bother with anything made by Bendix-king because they don’t support the products. 

[MIm20c]

I thought they had a LED screen replacement for the 155?  I really like my 155 and I know someday the screen will have a dim/unreadable problem. 

[MIm20c]

1 minute ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Narco did the same thing ... right before they went tits up. 

Just sayin’ ...

Jim

Come on, this is an aviation forum, Tango Uniform

[jetdriven]

5 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

I thought they had a LED screen replacement for the 155?  I really like my 155 and I know someday the screen will have a dim/unreadable problem. 

 Yes you send them your KX155 radio and if they deem it unrepairable they charge $800... if they deem it repairable, then they replace the display and  charge you $1750 and then send it back. 

I don’t think they’re even doing this anymore

But for a few bucks more you can get an SL30 and avoid all this nonsense.

[Bob - S50]

30 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Not only do they refuse to lower prices, they actually raise prices and  make impossible for dealers to service the components (they want you to ship it all back to the factory now) and they discontinue everything all the screens are discontinued. KX155 repairs are discontinued. KLN GPS screens are discontinued and everything like that. I know they offer the KT74 and the screens are too dim to read often, but why even bother with anything made by Bendix-king because they don’t support the products. 

I actually learned a little about that too.  Apparently, BK still allows outside vendors to repair their items.  However, to do so they have apply to continue doing repairs, meet certain standards and pay BK $3500 for the privilege of doing so.  I assume that's per year but I did not press the issue.

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

TKM is also coming out with a slide-in replacement for the KX155 and KX165 that looks very promising. I put two of their MX170Cs in my J in place of the original KX170Bs over 10 years ago right after I purchased the plane and I have been totally pleased with them. 

Jim

http://tkmavionics.com/our-products/mx155-navcomm/

The TKM interface is awful 

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=141414

Edited February 25, 2018 by jetdriven

[jetdriven]

The tkm mx170 isn’t so bad I like it ok.  but the tkm 155 somehow is much worse. 

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Not only do they refuse to lower prices, they actually raise prices and  make impossible for dealers to service the components (they want you to ship it all back to the factory now) and they discontinue everything all the screens are discontinued. KX155 repairs are discontinued. KLN GPS screens are discontinued and everything like that. I know they offer the KT74 and the screens are too dim to read often, but why even bother with anything made by Bendix-king because they don’t support the products. 

That's my take.

I like my KFC200.  Its an excellent autopilot.  But I think the prospects for it into the future are dim.  Cost wise, sooner than later, the wise dollar is to remove it and to install one of the new generation of autopilots/systems coming up.  Hopefully before I need any further repairs.  I am jumping out of the BK train.  Not to mention that the new generation of digital autopilots are much better equipped and I like the idea of brushless motors.  At the moment I am split between Dynon and GFC500, but we will see how it shakes out in a year or so.  Hopefully no repairs needed before then.  Anyway no way am I investing in a BK anything, certainly not a KI300.

Edited February 25, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Andy95W]

15 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The tkm mx170 isn’t so bad I like it ok.  but the tkm 155 somehow is much worse. 

Totally agree.  I tried it out at OSH last year and was very disappointed. They overcomplicated the crap out of it.  And the price is too high. Unfortunate, really.

[Aerodon]

I researched the Trio, Trig and GFC500 for installation on a C172.

1) The Trio STC is being developed by a separate entity (to Trio) with a bit of an attitude problem, and I believe a bit of a copyright problem (on the web but not verified by me).  The guy keeps whining how busy he is with his day job (Cisco) and his night job (STC Group), and basically told me to F-off when I asked him not to share my email address along with all his customers.  He was sending project updates to his entire mailing list without using BCC.  If he thinks he can succeed by pissing off the very small number of buyers who are willing to be first - then good luck.  I'm glad he did, because the GFC500 is far superior.  I looked at the C172 installation at OSH, and did not like the servo with a pushrod onto the cables.  Seems goofy to me.   I like the Trio autopilot head and features - seems like a great product.

2) The Trig guys were very helpful.  I didn't really like the servo on the firewall connected directly to the control column.  

3) GFC500 - Garmin have nailed it.  The servos with the traditional 'bridle cable' onto control wires seem like the right way to go.  I've seen the brackets and drawings fro a C182 and they look right.  If you take the G5 out of the pricing, its the same price as the others.  But you get tremendous additional value with the G5 - for a start, most Mooney owners can loose the vacuum system if they have an electric HSI already.  And then it is going to be forwardly compatible with a second G5 etc.  

I've just been burned by the Navworx experience.  Sitting staring at a $2000 brick right now.  I am one to support new innovative companies, but at the end of the day, the smart thing to do is to buy from a manufacturer who can afford to carry a product for as long as Garmin do, have the engineering department to do it well, and something that is likely to add more resale value than say Trio / Trig.

Regards,

Don

[PTK]

6 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The cost of that thing plus the cost of maintaining a King autopilot I don’t see the economy in it. I mean for 12-13k you can get the G5, G500 and all. Then have a modern autopilot with more features.  

I think it depends on which King autopilot. If we're talking about an anolog one then I agree. It may make better sense to replace it. But if we're talking about a digital one such as the KFC150 I don't think so. I don't see the economy or a pressing reason to take out a digital ap only to turn around and put another digital one in. The cost of maintaining my KFC 150 has been negligible. The KI300 provides a modern electronic way to eliminate the weak link which is its vacuum dependency.

[Steve W]

12 minutes ago, PTK said:

I think it depends on which King autopilot. If we're talking about an anolog one then I agree. It may make better sense to replace it. But if we're talking about a digital one such as the KFC150 I don't think so. I don't see the economy or a pressing reason to take out a digital ap only to turn around and put another digital one in. The cost of maintaining my KFC 150 has been negligible. The KI300 provides a modern electronic way to eliminate the weak link which is its vacuum dependency.

Saying the KFC150 is digital is a bit like saying my first Timex watch was digital, sure it's true but it doesn't come near the functionality of the new autopilots.

Envelope protection, vertical speed and altitude preselect(sure, an option on the 150 but doesn't seem to be common in the fleet), new vertical speed modes like airspeed and VNAV profiles, fully integrated with your glass displays, GPSS built in. 

The good news is for people who continue using the King autopilots is that all the folks upgrading should make parts availability very good for the future so you don't end up with multi-thousand dollar bills when something goes out.

 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Steve W said:

Saying the KFC150 is digital is a bit like saying my first Timex watch was digital, sure it's true but it doesn't come near the functionality of the new autopilots.

Envelope protection, vertical speed and altitude preselect(sure, an option on the 150 but doesn't seem to be common in the fleet), new vertical speed modes like airspeed and VNAV profiles, fully integrated with your glass displays, GPSS built in. 

The good news is for people who continue using the King autopilots is that all the folks upgrading should make parts availability very good for the future so you don't end up with multi-thousand dollar bills when something goes out.

Yeah - digital vs analogue.  And its not just about modern vs older, or more functions versus less.  The phrasing means that the computations are done in a digital circuitry by probably something like a DSP (digital signal processor) chip set, in a fashion that is actually a little computer that calculates the control law by computing the values of a formula. AN analogue circuitry is the older way that relies on build up of voltages in circuits and gains and converter circuits that convert the building voltages to voltages in the circuitry that goes to the servos.  Nothing is ever directly computed.  

In the old days, like 1950's and 1960s, even some actual numerical computations were done by some on "analogue computers' by arranging a circuit to correspond to some desired calculation.  You would "program it" but connecting different components together with a spaggeti of wires and you would wire it up for each different "computation" you wanted and you would read the answer off as a voltage and convert that to a numerical value.

http://www.vaxman.de/my_machines/hitachi/240/240.html

https://www.tablix.org/~avian/blog/archives/2007/05/vintage_computer_festival_europe_2007/

Anyway digital vs analogue is not just good vs bad. It describes the kind of circuitry that is involved and likewise digital usually means a micro chipset and so more modern and also more robust.

Edited February 25, 2018 by aviatoreb

[PTK]

4 hours ago, Steve W said:

Saying the KFC150 is digital is a bit like saying my first Timex watch was digital, sure it's true but it doesn't come near the functionality of the new autopilots.

Envelope protection, vertical speed and altitude preselect(sure, an option on the 150 but doesn't seem to be common in the fleet), new vertical speed modes like airspeed and VNAV profiles, fully integrated with your glass displays, GPSS built in. 

The good news is for people who continue using the King autopilots is that all the folks upgrading should make parts availability very good for the future so you don't end up with multi-thousand dollar bills when something goes out.

All these things you mention I can accomplish with my KFC150. It even has an envelope protection capability...of sorts. It will roll to wings level on demand. Which is good enough for me. And given my Mooney is not an Airbus, I don't care much about VNAV profiles. But it will do them. vnav descents are way more useful than climbs imo. 

[gsxrpilot]

So for the first time in 4207 posts, I'm going to agree with the Dentist 

I really like my KFC150. When I was out shopping for a 252 a year and a half ago, I knew about all the autopilots supposedly in the pipeline and just about to be released. Unfortunately timelines for avionics releases seem to be like dog years. One year from a manufacturer is equal to 7 years of flying. So I went specifically looking for a 252 with a KFC150 installed with all the options such as VS/Altitude pre-select. I reckon this keeps me out of the autopilot market for the next 10 years and allows me to enjoy flying today.

Now back to disagreeing with the Dentist . Along with that line of thinking, I opted to immediately eliminate my vacuum system by installing an Aspen. Although it might be "ancient" technology, it is available for install today instead of waiting dog years for vaporware that might or might not ever be released/approved/available for purchase.

Either use what's available today, or hold out for what might be available someday. I might log 1000 hours between now and then so I'll choose something I can install today.

[jetdriven]

IF that 12,000$ pitch board goes bad you may be in the market sooner than later. But I wouldn’t rip out a functioning autopilot now for sure.

[M016576]

11 hours ago, PTK said:

All these things you mention I can accomplish with my KFC150. It even has an envelope protection capability...of sorts. It will roll to wings level on demand. Which is good enough for me. And given my Mooney is not an Airbus, I don't care much about VNAV profiles. But it will do them. vnav descents are way more useful than climbs imo. 

The KFC150 is a very capable unit.  I’ve got an Aspen connected to mine, so GPSS heading inputs, too.  No way I’m paying 12K plus install (another 6?) to replace it.... until I have to.

Now, if only the trim switch didn’t cost $600....