How to place a value a plane that's been sitting?

[Bob_Belville]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I really don't believe that E's for sale. I think the market for a $160K E is so small as to be nonexistent. I actually don't think any E is worth that much. 

And for my money, I'd still rather have @Bob_Belville's E. I know it's history, I know who's done the maintenance, and I'm pretty sure it's not getting a dark paint job like that one. I  just don't like the paint at all.  But that's just personal.

But most importantly... and the point of this whole thread, is that one from Controller isn't flying. Bob's is flying all the time. And a Mooney that's getting regular use is always going to be worth more than a hangar queen.

Bottom line, I still believe Bob's is the best E in the country.

I just hope that the Burke County Tax Collector doesn't read MooneySpace.

[David_H]

7 hours ago, Yetti said:

 

"getting"  a plane has lots of costs associated with them.   Travel to and fro, PPI, hotels, Ferry cost,  a couple of weekends. just that can add up to $5K easy.   If you find one close to you then you can save some dollars right there.

 

Travel gets expensive very quickly and logistics usually seems to be more difficult than expected.

[Tx_Aggie]

Not sure what you’re looking for exactly but I am vouch for this C. I kept it flying for the last 6months specifically for these purposes mentioned. I couldn’t purchase for personal reasons but its autopilot is great for IFR. The Gps is non waas but shoots lnav approaches. It’s been in dry west Texas for the last 7-8 years. It’s a good plane. Look it up on FlightAware.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2307005&s-type=aircraft



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[David_H]

2 hours ago, Tx_Aggie said:

Not sure what you’re looking for exactly but I am vouch for this C. I kept it flying for the last 6months specifically for these purposes mentioned. I couldn’t purchase for personal reasons but its autopilot is great for IFR. The Gps is non waas but shoots lnav approaches. It’s been in dry west Texas for the last 7-8 years. It’s a good plane. Look it up on FlightAware.
https://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C&listing_id=2307005&s-type=aircraft



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Thanks. I looked at that ad. It's good to hear that it was being flown.

The engine is close to TBO so a rebuild would likely be near. The light hail damage is a bit of a turn-off... but the ad is upfront about it. What do you think about the asking price with those things considered? Feel free to message me if you prefer to discuss it privately. I don't want to bring a negative light to the ad.

Does anyone know if light hail damage could cause any insurance issues?

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, David_H said:

Thanks. I looked at that ad. It's good to hear that it was being flown.

The engine is close to TBO so a rebuild would likely be near. The light hail damage is a bit of a turn-off... but the ad is upfront about it. What do you think about the asking price with those things considered? Feel free to message me if you prefer to discuss it privately. I don't want to bring a negative light to the ad.

Does anyone know if light hail damage could cause any insurance issues?

I had light hail damage on my M20C. I made no difference to insurance and also no issue when I sold it.

Much more important is the engine (if priced right it's a good thing, you get to pick your own engine rebuild) and the lack of WAAS. Adding WAAS doesn't only get you precision GPS approaches... it get's you close to ADSB which is coming up soon.

This M20C looks to be a serious contender.

[Yetti]

We said we would help.

So on that C

TBO for me is meh.    I am of the keep swapping cylinders till it makes metal.   So budget a couple of cylinders  $3000

ADSB $4000

Is that a 4 place intercom?

Moving map GPS - optional but $11,000

Things that break the first year.  $5000

Now you compare that plane to the others listed and see how much they need done to them.

Subtract some value for what you need and then you have your price.

 

 

[steingar]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:49 AM, Niko182 said:

id have to say he has a pretty good competition for the top E.
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/21352509/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21
Pity the market for people willing to spend 160K on an E is so small. I do believe it is worth every
penny though.

157 AMUs for an aircraft worth about 60 with a mid time engine to boot?  Dude's on crack, or isn't serious.  That kind of money buys a LOT of airplane.  Buying something like this for a premium price is the only way I know to get real value in aviation.  But paying that kind of money for a short body Mooney is nuts.

[Tx_Aggie]

Thanks. I looked at that ad. It's good to hear that it was being flown.
The engine is close to TBO so a rebuild would likely be near. The light hail damage is a bit of a turn-off... but the ad is upfront about it. What do you think about the asking price with those things considered? Feel free to message me if you prefer to discuss it privately. I don't want to bring a negative light to the ad.
Does anyone know if light hail damage could cause any insurance issues?

Pm sent


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[David_H]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

We said we would help.

So on that C

TBO for me is meh.    I am of the keep swapping cylinders till it makes metal.   So budget a couple of cylinders  $3000

ADSB $4000

Is that a 4 place intercom?

Moving map GPS - optional but $11,000

Things that break the first year.  $5000

Now you compare that plane to the others listed and see how much they need done to them.

Subtract some value for what you need and then you have your price.

 

 

 

Assuming an owner would discount appropriately for engine time...

The OH would need to be accounted for now (even if ran on-condition for a while) which would start things off at $50K. Add ADSB right now... $5K on top of that. The acquisition expenses, say $5K, while necessary, could not be aded to the value. The $5K first year unknown expenses is unrecoverable sunk costs. A WAAS GPS would be great, but lets defer that to keep immediate costs down. Lets say this is all that's needed and everything else is good-to-go. Bear in mind, the prop hasn't turned yet.

At this point, approximately $65K has been spent under ideal conditions. This plane now has a market value closer to $40-45K when the time to sale comes and would compete against other planes in the marketplace. So... plan for a $20-25K loss on the front end based on ideal conditions? How in the heck does one have that conversation with a seller? The seller doesn't care or want to hear about that since it won't be their problem.

The small group of people that can afford to purchase are often Attorneys, Physicians, Engineers, Investment Bankers, etc. Those people are fairly good with assessments and make a living of researching to asses value.

[kris_adams]

On 12/26/2017 at 6:36 PM, M20Doc said:

A corroded engine is easily replaced with a new engine.  A corroded airframe can be a death sentence for it.

Clarence

 

Yep, by far my biggest concern...

[kris_adams]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:49 AM, Niko182 said:

id have to say he has a pretty good competition for the top E.
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/21352509/1966-mooney-m20e-super-21
Pity the market for people willing to spend 160K on an E is so small. I do believe it is worth every
penny though.

Love how the ad says this plane was basically restored from the ground up...oh yeah, other than the 1300SMOH engine.  I'm not saying it needs to be replaced, just made me laugh.  Restored from the ground up make me think it has a new or new factory OH.  It's had some amazing work done to it for sure!

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, David_H said:

 

Assuming an owner would discount appropriately for engine time...

The OH would need to be accounted for now (even if ran on-condition for a while) which would start things off at $50K. Add ADSB right now... $5K on top of that. The acquisition expenses, say $5K, while necessary, could not be aded to the value. The $5K first year unknown expenses is unrecoverable sunk costs. A WAAS GPS would be great, but lets defer that to keep immediate costs down. Lets say this is all that's needed and everything else is good-to-go. Bear in mind, the prop hasn't turned yet.

At this point, approximately $65K has been spent under ideal conditions. This plane now has a market value closer to $40-45K when the time to sale comes and would compete against other planes in the marketplace. So... plan for a $20-25K loss on the front end based on ideal conditions? How in the heck does one have that conversation with a seller? The seller doesn't care or want to hear about that since it won't be their problem.

The small group of people that can afford to purchase are often Attorneys, Physicians, Engineers, Investment Bankers, etc. Those people are fairly good with assessments and make a living of researching to asses value.

I don't think including maintenance in the "value" of the plane is the way to go.  Lots of sellers want to include maintenance in the price of a plane.  You can do the trig ADSB Remote transponder with GPS source for $4K.   The main conversation point is the time on engine would be a $10K - $15K conversation.   If you are not one of those group of people and can turn a wrench, and don't live in California, then you can afford to own a plane.

[David_H]

1 minute ago, Yetti said:

I don't think including maintenance in the "value" of the plane is the way to go.  Lots of sellers want to include maintenance in the price of a plane.  You can do the trig ADSB Remote transponder with GPS source for $4K.   The main conversation point is the time on engine would be a $10K - $15K conversation.   If you are not one of those group of people and can turn a wrench, and don't live in California, then you can afford to own a plane.

I agree that maintenance should not be included and adds no value. Hence, $5-10K disappears at the time of purchase since it can't really be recovered... but the check still has to be written.

The ADSB hit adds no value to a purchase for either a buyer or seller (in my mind). However, someone has to write the check eventually. I know some will argue that ADSB is great and I don't want to get into that discussion.  

[David_H]

2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

This isn't directed at anyone in particular and it certainly isn't directed at the previous poster, but inspite of the fact that I feel like I am on the thriftier side of average I am often amazed at how critically many of you evaluate the financial side of buying used airplanes. To be sure you must have driven harder bargains than I did when you purchased your planes. I guess, though, that at least partially explains the multiyear searches for the right plane that are often reported here. 

In all fairness the initial cost of an M20J are greater than the pre-J models and looks to represent a slightly different market.

When I speak of values, I am referring to current published Blue-Book values for C,E,G, &F models. Another data point for valuation is The Mooney Flyer valuation tool for pre-J planes. It agrees fairly well with the Blue-Book retail values and I figure the guys that put the tool together knows Mooneys fairly well. 

Also, when I inquired about hull value for insurance, I was told that the published Blue-Book values were used as a baseline. Insured values were adjusted up or down based on equipment and times from there. Hence, I could only insure for a certain hull value regardless of what was paid.

Edited December 29, 2017 by David_H

[kortopates]

In all fairness the value of a M20J is better than the pre-J models and looks to represent a slightly different market.

When I speak of values, I am referring to current published Blue-Book values for C,E,G, &F models. Another data point for valuation is The Mooney Flyer valuation tool for pre-J planes. It agrees fairly well with the Blue-Book retail values and I figure the guys that put the tool together knows Mooneys fairly well. 

Also, when I inquired about hull value for insurance, I was told that the published Blue-Book values were used as a baseline. Insured values were adjusted up or down based on equipment and times from there. Hence, I could only insure for a certain hull value regardless of what was paid.

Insurance companies will generally always insure an aircraft for the selling price. If its above 200% of market price for the model they'll likely ask for an appraisal. It's much easier to get higher valued planes insured at time of sale then it is after upgrades as an owner.

 

 

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[Yetti]

32 minutes ago, David_H said:

In all fairness the value of a M20J is better than the pre-J models and looks to represent a slightly different market.

 

I would disagree with that statement.   A good J would cost $90-$110K   A good late model F is $50-60K    So you are spending almost twice as much to only go 10-20 knots faster for about the same fuel burn.

Then of course you have the would you put a $40K panel in a $50-60K(the same as the value of the plane) plane which would make no sense, but in a $110K plane it would make perfect sense (1/3 of the value of the plane)

 

[David_H]

7 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I would disagree with that statement.   A good J would cost $90-$110K   A good late model F is $50-60K    So you are spending almost twice as much to only go 10-20 knots faster for about the same fuel burn.

Then of course you have the would you put a $40K panel in a $50-60K(the same as the value of the plane) plane which would make no sense, but in a $110K plane it would make perfect sense (1/3 of the value of the plane)

 

In all fairness the initial costs of an M20J are greater than the pre-J models and looks to represent a slightly different market.

Cost and value are very different... fixed.

Edited December 29, 2017 by David_H

[gsxrpilot]

As PT Barnum once said...

I don't like Blue book, VREF, or the Mooney Flyer tool. Rather when I bought each of my two Mooneys, I made a spread sheet of every example for sale in the US and Canada. That, over the course of a couple of months, gives a good idea of what airplanes are worth. I made sure to include things such as engine time, panel, autopilot, paint, interior, etc... I found that the difference between the cheapest airworthy airplane on the list and the one with all the bells and whistles, that didn't require any upgrading, was only a few thousand. While upgrading the cheap one to the same equipment list would cost at least 4x that same amount. 

This business if full of suckers... sorry to say. Sometimes the buyer is the sucker. (I'll score this sweet deal and upgrade it) And sometimes the seller is the sucker (I put all this money into the panel/plane and will never get it back).

If you're the sucker seller... at least you hopefully got to enjoy the result of all that money "wasted" for a period of time. But if you're the sucker buyer... I'm sorry.

Certainly there are buyers who won't be able to afford the nice example and that's fine. I decided I couldn't afford the nice E I wanted and so bought a nice C instead. I still think that was a better decision than buying the "cheap" E. There are some examples on this forum of owners we all admire, who bought the cheapest Mooney they could find and are happy just to get it airworthy and fly it. @Raptor05121 would be at the top of this list. But even so it was a long and sometimes painful process that involved untold hours of sweat equity on Alex's part.

Buying the cheap one and turning it into the nice one while admirable, is always a losing financial proposition.

The other possible situation here is when the plane you want doesn't exist. Then you're only option is to find a good candidate for updating and build what you want. But be prepared to spend the money and don't expect to get it back. This is what I'm doing with my 252. I was looking for the best 252 (preferably Encore) that I could find. But all the available examples were nice in all the wrong ways. I'm not impressed by fancy paint and leather interior when corners were cut on the panel, avionics, autopilot, etc. So I bought the best candidate with the best bones and have been spending on it to make it what I want. Someday (hopefully many years from now), there will be a very nice 252 for sale, and I'll be the sucker selling it with a smile on my face for all the many hundreds/thousands of hours I'll have had flying her. Just like my hero's @Bob_Belville and @Marauder.

Sorry for rambling on...

[David_H]

I've been keeping up with what's out there and mapping the trends... they sure are ugly. Paul is right, there are no deals out there. 

[Yetti]

This is what I found.   There are planes that have been there for a good while.   Then others will pop up.   Be ready with what you want and then move.   People here will help, go take a looksy, and other ways.

[wburger1]

David,

I just drove up today and took a look at that 67 M20C with the high time engine and took a few pictures as I am also in the market.  I am close to Houston so it was only a 3 hour drive..  PM me and I will share them

[Guest Spike Kavalench]

Any suggestions on things to look for when buying an M20B with a Rayjay turbo?

[66mooney66]

My .02 is I would only buy a plane that sat a long time for salvage value.  Engine as a core worth X and parts that are good to sell incase of corrosion is worth Y and that is the value to me...

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Spike.

They are very much like all the other Mooneys within that decade... the usual PPI list will apply...

The addition of the turbo gets a few added points to be aware of.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[MyNameIsNobody]

On 12/27/2017 at 4:16 AM, gsxrpilot said:

I really don't believe that E's for sale. I think the market for a $160K E is so small as to be nonexistent. I actually don't think any E is worth that much. 

And for my money, I'd still rather have @Bob_Belville's E. I know it's history, I know who's done the maintenance, and I'm pretty sure it's not getting a dark paint job like that one. I  just don't like the paint at all.  But that's just personal.

But most importantly... and the point of this whole thread, is that one from Controller isn't flying. Bob's is flying all the time. And a Mooney that's getting regular use is always going to be worth more than a hangar queen.

Bottom line, I still believe Bob's is the best E in the country.

To that bottom line.  Of course MINE is the “Best” E in the country because it is MINE

Like Bob’s it is NOT FOR SALE and will hopefully someday be flown by my Co-Owners children.