Career Advice

[pinkiedog64]

My $.02: I grew up very interested in airplanes and all other things mechanical.  I frequented airshows and airplane museums, but didn't have parents or family who were in aviation or had an airplane or flew.  Wanted to be a pilot for as far back as I can remember.  Took some lessons between high school and college, which prompted me to want to be a pilot even more, then went to college, majoring in flight and airplane mechanics.  Would have come out with commercial, CFI, CFII, multi, etc, and A&P.  After about 1.5 years of that I realized I didn't want to fly for a living.  This was mostly due to my realization that most all the "cool" aviation jobs only come after tens of thousands of hours and years in the field or military, neither of which I wanted to do.  Call me ill-informed and/or impatient.  So I switched to mechanical engineering.  Spent my last four years at Mooney in Kerrville, and recently moved to Stratos Aircraft in Oregon.  I get to merge my interest in mechanical engineering with airplanes.  It's the ideal combination for me.  I am financially comfortable enough to fly as a hobby now, and even own a Luscombe, Taylorcraft, etc.  

All that to say, it may be something he wants to do for a career, but do not rule out keeping it in the back pocket as a future hobby in case he decides it is not actually want he wants to do for a living.

 

[Aviationinfo]

I love hearing about young people who get bitten by the aviation bug.

It should be clear that at least some college is required.  Frankly, although college isn't for everybody, everybody should have at least some college in their background, even if it's only a year and then they stop.  There is so much more benefit  to it than purely academics.

If he was thrilled with the idea of a Bachelor's Degree and in love with any particular university he'd seriously be filling out college apps right now because the admissions process is about to begin for Fall 2018.

Here's my suggestion: Get him into some flight training.  Observe how he takes to the academics.  After he graduates from high school, let him work all summer while still taking lessons.  Then in the fall, get him started at a community college, knocking out  the core curricula stuff that he would need to have anyway in order to transfer to a 4-year university.   He doesn't need to declare a major until his junior year in most cases so this idea will save you some money in the long run, and in the short run if he changes his mind about flying, or about college, well, this would be the least disruptive path for him.    OTOH should he continue to love flying, and adapt well to community college, now he's all set up to continue to a 4-year university.  Only you know your son well enough to help him with these decisions but the beauty of doing it this way is that you save some money while still allowing for him to have the full college experience later ;   community college is a means to an end.   He can equate college with the ability to keep flying as a career;  if he decides against that, he's still able to fly for fun because he started his flight training at a young age when you helped pay for it.  He won't have to wait until HIS kids are out of college until he can take lessons.    Win-win, no matter what he decides.   At age 17 he needs not feel huge time pressure to choose a career.  He doesn't even need to have all of his licenses by the time he leaves community college.

With GREAT respect for my friends and the fellow participants here who went the military route--- I respectfully disagree with sending a teenager to join the service simply because he lacks direction.  If you join up without a bachelor's degree, guess where you could end up in this day and age while you're busy figuring out what you want to do?  That said, if my 17 year old was seriously thrilled with the idea and refused college or ROTC then it would be a different story, because he's just going to enlist as soon as he turns 18 anyway.    That doesn't necessarily sound like your son though.

Flying is a great career but it's not without some very serious sacrifices which have only barely been touched on in this thread.   If he wants to pursue it as a career, that's great, but make sure he really loves aviation because if he doesn't, the sacrifices will definitely diminish his job satisfaction over time.  You need that passion for aviation in order to  get through the difficulties.

Here's hoping it works out for him!

 

 

[carusoam]

Warming the thread with a news story...

United Airlines ramps up recruitment to hire 10,000 pilots over the next decade...

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/03/united-airlines-ramps-up-recruitment-to-hire-10000-pilots-over-next-decade.html?__source=iosappshare|com.apple.UIKit.activity.Message

Is there a recession coming or not?

Best regards,

-a-

[Aviationinfo]

They are simply doing the math and looking at retirements.   Don’t worry, if there’s a severe enough recession they will furlough so fast it’ll make your eyes water. The good news is that the high number of retirements helps mitigate the risk for the new hires.

[steingar]

The converse.  A very young pal of mine got bitten at a young age by the aviation bug.  His folks bought him a Skyhawk and paid for his gas.  No college, but he now flies in Alaska and has been doing it for some time.  Lives on his own boat, I believe in Anchorage.  He's 25, what this will look like to him at 35 I don't know.  But if the OPs boy is that averse to education there are pathways.

[flyboy0681]

I did read recently that Boeing is working on research for a single pilot passenger transport. In this age of autonomous cars it seems plausible, but I'm wondering how the FAA will react to it.

[carusoam]

So the September jobs report came in at 8:30 this morning...

The unemployment rate is at 3.5%...

Hasn’t been this low since our Mooneys were built...

And.... Back then they were probably only counting middle aged, white, men...

Don’t put too much into the finer details.... getting a job hasn’t gotten much better, ever.... however and whoever you want to count.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-adds-136000-jobs-in-september-unemployment-rate-hits-50-year-low-2019-10-04

Recessions come and go... if you choose your career by avoiding opportunities because there are going to be lay-offs, furloughs, downsizing, right sizing, corporate mergers and acquisitions.... Avoiding corporate America will cut out many opportunities...

It helps to work really hard, learn as much as you can, and get lucky...

The harder I work, the luckier I get... - Thomas Jefferson

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Recessions come and go... if you choose your career by avoiding opportunities because there are going to be lay-offs, furloughs, downsizing, right sizing, corporate mergers and acquisitions.... Avoiding corporate America will cut out many opportunities...

It helps to work really hard, learn as much as you can, and get lucky...

The harder I work, the luckier I get... - Thomas Jefferson

I've been downsized once and laid off once. The first time, at thanksgiving, it was 2 months before I started back to work; the second time was 4 weeks.

This year, while working hard and not looking, a new job found me. 

I haven't stopped flying my Mooney through any of it.

Hard work, education, perseverance and making yourself more valuable over time is all that it takes . . . Just putting in your 8 hours won't do a whole lot for you, and never has. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Hank

[flyboy0681]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

Hard work, education, perseverance and making yourself more valuable over time is all that it takes . . . Just putting in your 8 hours won't do a whole lot for you, and never has. 

Amen brother.

[BKlott]

14 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Gone already are the navigators and flight engineers.  Single pilot seems the inevitable next progression before we pilots are eventually nothing more than a historical curiosity.  

But let history reflect that we Pilots actually flew our airplanes.

[Aviationinfo]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

I've been downsized once and laid off once. The first time, at thanksgiving, it was 2 months before I started back to work; the second time was 4 weeks.

This year, while working hard and not looking, a new job found me. 

I haven't stopped flying my Mooney through any of it.

Hard work, education, perseverance and making yourself more valuable over time is all that it takes . . . Just putting in your 8 hours won't do a whole lot for you, and never has. 

I’m guessing you don’t work in the American airline industry... where hard work has no bearing on whether or not you get laid off.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Aviationinfo said:

I’m guessing you don’t work in the American airline industry... where hard work has no bearing on whether or not you get laid off.

No, I'm an engineer in an American factory, the type of job that has been disappearing since I was in high school. Remember in the 90s, we were transforming into the Information Age and proud to ship manufacturing overseas? That's when I moved into the Fortune 500 and got another promotion. 

[Davidv]

This is just heresay, but I recently met someone who owns a airline pilot staffing company and he said that Boeing is designing the 797 as single pilot with a second pilot on the ground in a drone like room helping to manage multiple flights.  
 

Who knows how many years away this is, but it’s another dismal reminder that aviation in general will change substantially over the next 50 years.  Yes, I’m some ways for the better, but probably not for the people who don’t enjoy engaging the autopilot at 300 feet.

[tigers2007]

Paging @Candy man. Can you give us an update on your (now)19 year old year old hopefully-no-long-a High School senior? Is he flying at all?

[Candy man]

4 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

Paging @Candy man. Can you give us an update on your (now)19 year old year old hopefully-no-long-a High School senior? Is he flying at all?

Well...

perhaps I should have titled the thread “parenting advice”. 

The update. The now 19 year old who should be a sophomore in college lasted 1 semester and said he had enough. He is working in a high end restaurant, but in my opinion  it’s not a career path. He has not continued to fly. I have offered to continue to pay for flight training but haven’t pushed it at all. My personal opinion is that this is something he  must want to do. To be “all in” and want to continue to learn, practice, and improve is in my opinion the best way to increase ones safety and proficiency. He does talk about it but he needs to push me a little. I hope he goes back to school this winter even if he’s on the 7 year plan. 

Everyone I speak to continues to tell me that it’s still a great time to be in aviation. The regionals are paying well with huge bonuses. And there are a ton of retirements on the horizon. We will see how my son does in the next few months. Luckily I am blessed with 4 boys and a girl. (All with the same woman after we were married go figure). The now 19 year old is the number 2 child, number one is studying IT at the university of Cincinnati. Number 3 is a high school senior that starts flight training with  his first flight in the left seat this upcoming Thursday. Number 4 a high school junior likes girls more than anything else. And number 5 a high school freshman and the only girl wants to learn to fly but not as a career, at least not yet. 

I will keep you all posted. I have seen other members of mooneyspace showing off children’s flying accomplishments, first solos and fresh tickets.  I’d love to hear about their future plans and success.

 

thanks for asking.

 

Lawrence

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Candy man

[Gagarin]

Flying the plane is not everything. The design, flight testing, and certification of aircraft is a very interesting and rewarding aspect of aviation. An airline pilot may know everything about flying a B777 but a Boeing flight test engineer fly the plane to the envelope extremes to insure its safety. I enjoyed more myself testing for flutter speeds, structural limits and avionics performance. Thanks to the engineers we fly safer planes.

The joy of the first flights 

 

  

Edited October 5, 2019 by Gagarin

[flyboy0681]

3 hours ago, Gagarin said:

Flying the plane is not everything. The design, flight testing, and certification of aircraft is a very interesting and rewarding aspect of aviation. An airline pilot may know everything about flying a B777 but a Boeing flight test engineer fly the plane to the envelope extremes to insure its safety. I enjoyed more myself testing for flutter speeds, structural limits and avionics performance. Thanks to the engineers we fly safer planes.

 

I recall a multipart PBS series around 1995 about the design, building and test flying of the 777. It was so fascinating that I remember seeing it after all these years.

[Jerry 5TJ]

12 hours ago, Davidv said:

.....Boeing is designing the 797 as single pilot with a second pilot on the ground in a drone like room helping to manage multiple flights.....

 

Makes sense: Just fly it like a big military drone is operated today.  

Why pay two guys to sit there and watch the autopilot fly the plane?  

A small crew on the ground can monitor several aircraft at one time, maybe dozens at once. 

So, will the on-board guy be the PF or the PNF?   I bet he is the PNF to maintain better SA.  

[jetdriven]

9 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 

Makes sense: Just fly it like a big military drone is operated today.  

Why pay two guys to sit there and watch the autopilot fly the plane?  

A small crew on the ground can monitor several aircraft at one time, maybe dozens at once. 

So, will the on-board guy be the PF or the PNF?   I bet he is the PNF to maintain better SA.  

I take it you’re not an airline pilot. The job is little bit more involved then just pushing some buttons and watching the autopilot fly the plane.  I don’t think we are quite  near that level of technology yet. There is somebody on the ground to monitor the airplane, it’s called the dispatcher. They’re also jointly responsible for the safety of the flight.

[aviatoreb]

12 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 

Makes sense: Just fly it like a big military drone is operated today.  

Why pay two guys to sit there and watch the autopilot fly the plane?  

A small crew on the ground can monitor several aircraft at one time, maybe dozens at once. 

So, will the on-board guy be the PF or the PNF?   I bet he is the PNF to maintain better SA.  

Two pilots are there to handle emergencies.  When situations are at their worst I would rather two humans up front.  Sure I bet they can automate to the point that one human pilot can handle the job on a good day - Sure one human back at Boeing central maybe but I’m suspicious how helpful that is in an emergency.

Edited October 6, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Candy man]

First I think someone has been listening to us

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20191003-the-three-things-that-could-kill-the-pilotless-airliner

 

secondly can someone please fix my pictures? I promise we were not inverted when that was taken, and I even put it upside down in my album and it’s still upside down.

lastly enough about single pilot/ no pilot. I want to hear about the young guys or the kids of the old guys their paths to aviation and their successes or hurdles.

Lawrence

[larryb]

IFR flight consists of ATC remotely flying the aircraft via a primitive voice link. I don't see autonomous flight being a reality until ATC is remotely flying our aircraft with a digital datalink. I have seen no discussion regarding the development of such technology.

[Skates97]

I don't think I"m a young guy or and old guy (yet), but I'll give you my story. My two cents is have them find something they are good at and can earn a living doing. I am still a believer that the worst career advice you can give someone is find something they are passionate about at try to make a living doing it, often there is passion for it but they don't have the skills to be successful at it. In the rare occasion those stars do line up. Doing something you are "passionate about" daily can also take the "passion" out of it and make it mundane. I tell people all the time that I work so that I can spend time with my family doing the things I really enjoy. Don't misunderstand, I do enjoy my job and I work for a great individual, but I'm not sure I while I enjoy my job it is not my passion.

My older son enjoys flying and would like to someday, but not for a living. For my younger son it is a way to get where we are going faster. My daughters enjoy going up for a flight but that is all. So, I'll give you my story in a nutshell. (A long nutshell)

I have no recollection of ever not wanting to fly. From my earliest memories all I wanted to do was fly. My dad was in the Air Force and flew T-38's, C-130, and HC-130's. At the age of 8 when we transferred to Alaska we lived in temporary quarters on the second floor for a few months while waiting for our house. Between the buildings I could see parts of the runway at Elmendorf and would sit there for hours with a pencil and piece of paper logging the numbers and types of planes that took off and landed. Find me another 8 year old that will do that for hours a day.

I coasted through high school (but didn't try quite hard enough) and graduated I think with a 3.6 which wasn't enough to get me into the Air Force Academy. Instead I went to ROTC at ASU, still with dreams of flying. When I was a freshman they were sending about 30 cadets to camp from my detachment and getting about 3 pilot slots. I looked around and figured I could be in the top 10%. I took two years off to serve a mission for church and due to political changes there were changes in the military. When I returned home there were no pilot slots coming out of ROTC so I abandoned my dreams of a career in the Air Force and had to figure out how people made a living, I had always planned to be career Air Force.

I got a job working as a parts driver for an auto dealership at $5.25/hr because I was getting married and my wife to be already had a 3yo daughter. I kept working full time and going to school at night for a couple years (straight A's) with a major in bio-engineering until I found that I was moving up through the dealership and could manage the Parts Department making more money than I could coming out of school with a bio-engineering degree. At that point I dropped out of college and for the next probably five years constantly heard from my parents about how much more college graduates make.

About 4 years after getting into management I answered a blind ad for a Parts Manager in southern California, got the job, and moved my family. (California is expensive, but I was well compensated and that was the last time I heard the "college graduates make more money" from my parents).That was 17 years ago. I continued to work hard, the dealer bought a couple other dealerships and I was able to manage the Parts Departments for all his stores. The problem was that I was bored, I had it all on cruise control, so I approached the dealer and told him I wanted to do more, I wanted to run a whole dealership for him. 

I should add in here that 10 years ago, after 15 years of marriage to a drug addict, I decided myself and the kids couldn't do it anymore and divorced their mom. About 6 months later I was married to the most amazing woman who is the wife I always dreamed of and the mom my kids always needed.

Anyway, the dealer said that his controller was going to be retiring and he thought I would be perfect for the job. I had been working for him for about 13 years and excelled at any task given to me, as well as finding other ways to contribute to the stores doing my own analysis of the financial reports, forecasting, etc... So, I went back to school and got an Accounting Degree (doesn't scream excitement) and am now the controller for three stores in Orange County California.

How does that fit in flying? I never gave up my dream. We have some friends that I was surprised to learn that he had been a pilot for over 30 years. (He was a fireman and also a general contractor. I also found out he owned a plane. What?! How could that all be I knew about how much he must be making. I asked him what kind of plane he had and he told me a Mooney which was the first time I had ever heard of that kind of plane. A couple weeks later he gave my son and I a ride and I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I started doing research and found that while I thought my dream of flying would always just be a dream that it was actually in reach financially.

My wife's two oldest daughters were both expecting kids about a month apart, one living in Utah and one in Idaho. My wife said "Why don't you get your license, we'll get a plane, and you can fly me to see them." A couple days later I took my first flight.

I took my checkride about 4 1/2 months later and we bought our mooney about two months after that. It's been three years with I don't know how many flights, about 400 hours, and trips that I will never forget. I've seen family more in the past three years than in the prior 20 combined. We've seen places that I never would have gone to, we even flew across the country and back.

I am living my aviation dream, I just go to work to support it. I fly when I want to and where I want to. I don't have to ask anyone's permission, if I want to go somewhere I do. If I just want to go up for a short flight after work to enjoy to freedom of the skies I go to the airport, pull my plane out of my hangar and cruise around, it doesn't get much better.

My advice? Help your kids find something they are good at. Sometimes it takes time to figure all of that out. In the mean-time, take them flying whenever you can and just enjoy that time in the air with them. That coast to coast trip with my boys is something they and I will never forget, and I hope one day they will be telling their kids and grand kids about.

[eman1200]

[Aviationinfo]

At the risk of contributing to the thread creep, here’s an opinion piece that discusses automation vs going pilotless and says it more eloquently than I can:

http://www.askthepilot.com/questionanswers/automation-myths/

Edited October 7, 2019 by Aviationinfo