Garmin GTN650 or Avidyne IFD440

[donkaye]

51 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

The charts upload from the phone to the 750 though the FS750 quite fast. A couple of minutes maybe. Much faster than the same charts move from the SD card to the 696. And I still have to take the 696's SD card home to use fly.garmin.

As Bob says, the Charts transfer to the GTN within a couple of minutes.  All other databases in less than 30 seconds.  Database sync to the G500 with Charts is another matter entirely (around an hour).  I've given up on that one and just take the Supplemental Datacard home and transfer that database separately.

[wcb]

I am curious what you decided and how you are liking you choice?

[KLRDMD]

On 6/7/2017 at 10:37 AM, Desertdoc75 said:

I'm upgrading my non-waas 430 and adding ADS-B out and would like to invite opinions on which of the following setups is optimal and why. I'm looking specifically for install time and cost.

Garmin GTN650 w/ GTX335 Transponder (already have a GDL-39 3D) (w/ GNS-430 trade in)

<OR>

Avidyne IFD440 w/ AXP340/Skytrax 100

To directly answer the question,  install time and costs overwhelmingly favor the Avidyne 440 version of your proposal.

[Desertdoc75]

On 9/7/2017 at 8:07 AM, wcb said:

I am curious what you decided and how you are liking you choice?

Neither. Got hit with one hell of an annual and a really bad experience with an IA. 3 months and a few thousand dollars later, I'm just now pulling out ahead. Putting her back in service tomorrow............

Holding off on the upgrade for now. I'll add WAAS when I get ready to do my ADS-B compliance.

[wcb]

I decided to add the JPI EDM 900 vs GPS/NAV/COM for now as well.  I also added the Statux (prebuilt from Everlast) vs the Stratus.  Both should arrive late this week.

[JeffMirs]

I run from Garmin every chance I get.  They try to pin you into their corner at every opportunity.  And then you are trapped.  E.g. the labeling on a single button on my GPS is worn so you can't read it.  Cost for a new plastic button?  "$400."  No thanks!  

[DCarlton]

Dusting this off from 2017.  Any IFD440 fans out there?  Contemplating a GNS430 upgrade.... again.  Want to keep it simple and I tend to like buttons.  With the GTN650XI cheaper than the IFD, it seems like you've really gotta prefer the IFD to make that selection.  Thanks.

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Dusting this off from 2017.  Any IFD440 fans out there?  Contemplating a GNS430 upgrade.... again.  Want to keep it simple and I tend to like buttons.  With the GTN650XI cheaper than the IFD, it seems like you've really gotta prefer the IFD to make that selection.  Thanks.

Does "cheaper" include installation cost?  

FWIW, I like the IFD 5xx equally with the Garmin 750, but I like the Garmin 650 better than the IFD 440. 

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Dusting this off from 2017.  Any IFD440 fans out there?  Contemplating a GNS430 upgrade.... again.  Want to keep it simple and I tend to like buttons.  With the GTN650XI cheaper than the IFD, it seems like you've really gotta prefer the IFD to make that selection.  Thanks.

I don't know the answer, but if there were a G3X in my future, I would want to know if the GTN offered better connectivity.  Or they might be the same?

[ArtVandelay]

I don't know the answer, but if there were a G3X in my future, I would want to know if the GTN offered better connectivity.  Or they might be the same?

And the GFC500.

[hubcap]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

And the GFC500.

This ^^^

If you are EVER going to get a GFC500 autopilot you should get the 650. With the 650 you can utilize the VNAV feature of the GFC500, and it is incredible to use...IMO

[jkgyr52]

I have owned five K model airplanes with different avionics packages and have experienced the following:

I utilized an Avidyne IFD540 (~ 500 hrs). Previously, I flew with King Silver Crown avionics (~ 1000 hrs) and a Garmin 430 (~200 hrs). Also, over the last 25 years I have flown a couple hundred hours with my pilot buddies in Mooney and Cessna aircraft with similar King products, older Garmin products and newer Garmin GTN's.

For me one of the biggest difference's between the Avidyne/Garmin products is the ability to use buttons on the Avidyne for all functions in addition to the touch screen. The touchscreen in turbulence is much harder to operate and the workload is increased in single pilot IFR.

According to Gary Reeves (PilotSafety.org), who teaches single pilot IFR using both systems, the Garmin navigators are good BASIC products, and the Avidyne IFD products are closer to a FMS in function and are much more capable in a variety of advanced features.

Regarding customer and tech support my experience with Avidyne has been better than with Garmin. FWIW, Garmin designers are not a pilot based organization, whereas Avidyne is a company formed by pilots.

After overseeing three panels upgraded in K models I learned that using any of the old wiring is problematic and it's wiser to spend the AMU's to remove all the old and unnecessary wiring and start fresh (and gain some useful weight). Despite Avidyne's claim that you can "slide in" their units into the Garmin 530/430 racks, to get the full functions from them it is really more than just "adding a couple of wires".

My 1986 252 is in the process of having upgrades by replacing the Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440, and adding the uAvionics AV-20-S (mostly for AOA) and LHS-200-C for more precise landings.

I suspect despite the pro's and con's of Avidyne vs. Garmin, the decision is sort of similar to Apple vs. Samsung. The benefits of the modern avionics are overwhelming compared to the legacy units.

Happy flying!

[midlifeflyer]

24 minutes ago, jkgyr52 said:

According to Gary Reeves (PilotSafety.org), who teaches single pilot IFR using both systems, the Garmin navigators are good BASIC products, and the Avidyne IFD products are closer to a FMS in function and are much more capable in a variety of advanced features.

Well, Gary is an Avidyne spokesperson after all.

He's right in terms of where the two product lines began. The Garmins were born as basic GPS navigators and the Avidyne was originally conceived of years later  as an FMS. So there are bound to be difference because of their place of birth. But aside from flow and personal preference, I'd be surprised if someone could point out a substantial difference between a current GTN 750 or G1000 Xi  and an IFD 5xx in terms FMS feature, function, and capability..

 

As @ArtVandelay suggested, the real driver is what else you want to add. Garmin plays best with Garmin. Avidyne tries to work well with everything, but can be limited by Garmin's attempt to keep to itself.

[Mooney in Oz]

8 hours ago, jkgyr52 said:

adding the uAvionics AV-20-S (mostly for AOA)

I would inquire with other Mooney owners that have the AV-20S installed and installers whether previous known issues relating to AOA reliability in Mooneys have been resolved. 

The Search function should provide you with initial help.

[0TreeLemur]

Our J has an IFD 540.  Transitioning to it from a Garmin 430W was painful for the first few flights.  There are quite a few good videos on YouTube, and a good simulator for the iPad that help figure it out.  A few practice flights and an IPC with it cleared up most of my issues.   It's FMS capabilities are really powerful.   Its software provides a lot of options with dynamic buttons depending on what you are doing.   I too like the fact that you can do everything with buttons in rough air.  It drives the KFC-150 a/p just great.

[donkaye]

For the first time I finally have a transitioning student who has an IFD 540, so I thought it prudent to learn the unit.  I've watched all 3 1½ hour videos that Avidyne put out last year.  In some regards additional information is available as compared to the Garmin GPSs.  Maybe if I had 50 hours with the unit on a couple of long cross country flights I would get to appreciate it.  In many regards it operates a lot like the GNS 480.  Its menu structure is totally different from Garmin's.  I never really liked that unit,  but did several instrument ratings with students who had it.    While they say the tabbed menus are easier to use, I think it is a lot more difficult to get around than Garmin's structure.  Frankly, there is too much information on the map page, and the flight plan page at the moment just isn't comfortable for me to use.

Over time maybe my attitude will change, but for now for its ease of use, I'm still definitely a Garmin person.

[hais]

On 5/5/2023 at 9:08 AM, jkgyr52 said:

Garmin navigators are good BASIC products, and the Avidyne IFD products are closer to a FMS in function and are much more capable in a variety of advanced features.

So I had to ask, what is an FMS? I saw this excerpt on Google

"Still, the GPS navigators are not considered full FMS since they only use GPS for navigation, whereas FMS use GPS, VORs, NDBs, and INS for determining a position." 

Don't both GTN and IFD series use GPS and VOR? 

[Pinecone]

They have VOR receivers, but they don't use them at the same time as the GPS to determine position.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

They have VOR receivers, but they don't use them at the same time as the GPS to determine position.

Interesting.  I was wondering the same thing.  Gotta wonder if they have a situational awareness screen that shows the various inputs being received for position determination (similar to the screen that shows all the GPS sats).  

[EricJ]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:15 PM, hais said:

So I had to ask, what is an FMS? I saw this excerpt on Google

"Still, the GPS navigators are not considered full FMS since they only use GPS for navigation, whereas FMS use GPS, VORs, NDBs, and INS for determining a position." 

Don't both GTN and IFD series use GPS and VOR? 

Flight Management System.   It's what airliners use to manage a flight, navigate, etc., and does a lot more than just two- or three-dimensional navigation.   They also help manage fuel consumption gives input on descent times, etc.   I get the "Boeing green banana" on mine all the time and it does help in managing descent planning.  The Avidyne IFD is a feature-rich system that I suspect I may not ever stop learning how to fully leverage the capabilities.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

The Avidyne IFD is a feature-rich system that I suspect I may not ever stop learning how to fully leverage the capabilities.

And there in lies the problem.  With the GTN's you ARE able to easily leverage its capabilities to better manage a flight.

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, donkaye said:

And there in lies the problem.  With the GTN's you ARE able to easily leverage its capabilities to better manage a flight.

The problem is the user's ability to leverage the capabilities of either system to better manage a flight.

After checking off the IPC boxes, 80% (conservative estimate) of what I do with pilots is teach them how to use the system they already have. Maybe have had for years. Maybe in which they were taught basics. Maybe even passed their instrument checkride with one.  GNS. GTN. G1000. IFD. Doesn't matter. Often really simple things, like a single tap to get to the flight plan from the map page. Sometimes things that could mean loss of control. I hate to hold Jerry up as an example, but even his most recent moronic episode involves something he does with the GTN that has made me cringe every time he has done it. Finally managed to get the result I've been expecting. 

There seems to be a, "i should just be able to hop in" mentality floating around. I have a limited sample but, offhand, the Avidyne users actually seem to do better in this respect. Some upgraded from the 480. Others took advantage of Avidyne training and their scenario-based workbook far more than I've seen with new Garmin users.

There are reasons to choose one over the other. Connectivity with other avionics. Prior experience with something similar. Human reaction to differences. Basic "I like chocolate ice cream better than vanilla." But don't confuse your personal preferences or ability with the inherent quality of the system. It's time for, "mine is great; yours sucks" to go out of style.  

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

But don't confuse your personal preferences or ability with the inherent quality of the system. It's time for, "mine is great; yours sucks" to go out of style.  

The title of this thread was which should I buy, Garmin or Avidyne.  The OP said, "Let me know your thoughts."  I gave my opinion.  That's all.

[EricJ]

12 hours ago, donkaye said:

And there in lies the problem.  With the GTN's you ARE able to easily leverage its capabilities to better manage a flight.

Sounds like an argument to dumb all systems down to the lowest common denominator user.    I don't think that's a good strategy.   UI design isn't easy for this reason, especially when systems have a lot of advanced capability.   It's a difficult tradeoff to not intimidate or confuse the new or basic user and still provide efficient access to a deep feature set for the the more advanced users.    I think Avidyne did a very good job with it.

As mentioned above, I'd +1 that the Avidyne user interface is far more intuitive to me than the Garmin, but that's just me (and evidently a fair number of other people).

[skykrawler]

I think the latest products from Garmin and Avidyne are much closer to an FMS.  I find the touch panel difficult in turbulence (even in heavier twins).

An FMS also has:

Tight integration with the autopilot and autothrottle

Aircraft specific performance database - airframe drag and engine performance/fuel consumption.

Take-off and landing performance data for helping pilots make those decisions

Winds aloft input for enroute cruise and descent calculations.

Required time-of-arrival  - when you need to depart.

Holds at arbitrary locations

and more....