First Annual

[gsxrpilot]

The more Mooneys you see, fly, know, the quicker the process becomes. 

It's helps to know and be able to prioritize the issues that vintage planes suffer from. Not all problems are the same with regards to severity, cost, or effort. No bird is perfect. In fact, there have been a couple listed on this board recently as the "best ever" that I wouldn't buy.  The owners had spent huge sums, but some of it in the wrong place and actually increasing the cost to go back and do it right.

After all is said and done, it's still a crap shoot. And you've got to have a pretty good stash to stay and play. Airplane ownership is not for the faint of heart or the weak of wallet.

[steingar]

The bill or my first annual was about $1500.  Of course, that didn't include the $25,000 for the prop and engine tear down.  At least I can from now on always say I've landed worse.

[xcrmckenna]

I am pretty sure there are more ways than one to skin a cat. When people start using absolutes when it comes to airplanes there is a good chance they are ignorant or arrogant.

I proved that it can take more than 45 days to buy a plane. I'm sure there are people that have taken even longer.

I haven't lost a bit of sleep on the planes I didn't buy. And Ken shouldn't care how long it takes anyone to buy a plane.

Back to the original post congrats on a good first annual. But Ken never said what items were deferred or if he did an owners assisted, and with his knowledge I'm sure could have cut down on a lot of shop time, or what work could have been done that he wasn't charged for since he is such good friends with the shop doing the work.

I have a 100' measuring tape so he can show us if that was really his point of this thread.


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[KLRDMD]

  On 5/30/2017 at 4:37 PM, xcrmckenna said:

Back to the original post congrats on a good first annual. But Ken never said what items were deferred or if he did an owners assisted, and with his knowledge I'm sure could have cut down on a lot of shop time, or what work could have been done that he wasn't charged for since he is such good friends with the shop doing the work.

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I don't have time for owner assisted annuals right now and haven't done one in about a decade. No deferred items, why would I do that ? I have a great relationship with my maintenance shop, as I hope all of you do too. If a shop doesn't charge fairly, they go out of business. I expect to be charged fairly for everything that is done and truly wouldn't want it any other way.

My point of this thread was simply that there is too much hard core, one method only of doing things put forth on this board on a regular basis and that's simply not true.

You MUST do a pre-buy inspection.

It MUST be done by one of a handful of anointed ones.

To not do this will damn you to an outrageously expensive first annual, if the airplane is even airworthy in the first place.

[chrisk]

  On 5/30/2017 at 4:50 PM, KLRDMD said:

 

You MUST do a pre-buy inspection.

It MUST be done by one of a handful of anointed ones.

To not do this will damn you to an outrageously expensive first annual, if the airplane is even airworthy in the first place.

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I am of the opinion that you do not need to do a pre-buy, but doing so increases the risk for a problem at an annual.    Like wise, doing a pre-buy does not guarantee that a problem was not detected.   A perfect example is a 252 that had the fuel tank stripped, only to discover corrosion.  I don't thank any pre-buy would have caught that issue.

 

For me, I had two planes inspected before I found my plane.   For both planes that failed, it was probably good to walk away.  One of these planes was one month and a half hour out of annual at a MSC.  It was test flown for 30 minutes, then taken to another mechanic on the field.   It failed the compression test, leaking past the exhaust valve.  It was the best couple $100 I've spent in a few years. 

[xcrmckenna]

  On 5/30/2017 at 4:50 PM, KLRDMD said:

I don't have time for owner assisted annuals right now and haven't done one in about a decade. No deferred items, why would I do that ? I have a great relationship with my maintenance shop, as I hope all of you do too. If a shop doesn't charge fairly, they go out of business. I expect to be charged fairly for everything that is done and truly wouldn't want it any other way.
My point of this thread was simply that there is too much hard core, one method only of doing things put forth on this board on a regular basis and that's simply not true.
You MUST do a pre-buy inspection.
It MUST be done by one of a handful of anointed ones.
To not do this will damn you to an outrageously expensive first annual, if the airplane is even airworthy in the first place.

Yet you say someone should buy a plane in at least 45 days and it HAS to be that way. I'm saying to you that isn't the case. So maybe you should realize you are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Yet you don't see that is the same thing you are trying to do with this thread that people don't have to do a prebuy....

Again ignorance or arrogance started this thread. I'm glad you had a good first annual.


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[thinwing]

  On 5/28/2017 at 2:53 PM, Cyril Gibb said:

Agree wholeheartedly.  From various threads here and elsewhere, people avoid PPIs at their peril.  The J that I almost bought looked fine, flew fine and on paper had no issues, in reality had terminal corrosion very hidden and visible only with a mirror on a long rod.  It would have been scrap value. 

If someone has bought 14 planes, they may be in a snack bracket where an unfortunate gamble may be just an annoyance.  For many of us, finding out that our purchase was to be turned into beer cans would be a financial disaster.

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Or maybe he just doesn't keep them that long....and as he has described here on MS ,he uses them to get around to different dental offices in 2/3 western states..thus it is just a business expense...and since he's purchased 14 prior..apparently he knows how to buy over the phone...but not stated..how and when to sell!

[thinwing]

  On 5/29/2017 at 1:36 PM, KLRDMD said:

Why would you be glad that you couldn't fly an airplane you wanted for 2.5 years ? Plenty of people find and buy an airplane in a month, I don't understand how it can possibly take 2.5 years to find the right airplane.

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Because he did his due diligence with the tools he had at his disposal...Also it was his first aircraft purchase and a pretty big first aircraft bill compared to my first 3500 dollar Stinson with an engine in pieces on an A/P work bench!

[mccdeuce]

  On 5/30/2017 at 9:05 PM, xcrmckenna said:

 

Yet you say someone should buy a plane in at least 45 days and it HAS to be that way. I'm saying to you that isn't the case. So maybe you should realize you are trying to have your cake and eat it to.

Yet you don't see that is the same thing you are trying to do with this thread that people don't have to do a prebuy....

Again ignorance or arrogance started this thread. I'm glad you had a good first annual.
 

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Not sure I agree with you and thats a bit harsh.  His point is very true.  If you dig through the forums a large portion of people will tell you you have to have a PPI or your first annual will be very expensive.  And there are tons of threads covering this and the result of people who skip the inspection and end up with that oh so special unicorn that costs them 50 AMUs to get airworthy again.

In buying my Mooney I sent one to PPI.  Didn't get a great vibe on the aircraft and needed a second opinion.  Walked away.  2nd time around I really didn't get a good vibe from the owner, tried to send it to PPI and he sold it to someone else while under contract (theres a thread on here somewhere - I still hope the other guy who bought it sight unseen is doing well)

Third and the aircraft I bought I did not send to PPI.  It was the most expensive of the 3 aircraft.  The owner had tried to do best by the aircraft.  And you can tell that.  A lot of time by the conversations you have on the phone.  Even more when you look at the aircraft.  Remove one panel and you can tell a lot about the aircraft.  (the avionics access panel - look back there and if its full of droppings and is a mess odds are not in your favor)  Now I myself did a lengthy inspection of the aircraft and have had my first annual.  Couple minor things - need the rigging adjusted for example.  But in all straight forward.

When you are buying an old airplane you are really buying the previous owner.  Look for a good owner.

 

[KLRDMD]

  On 5/30/2017 at 11:52 PM, mccdeuce said:

When you are buying an old airplane you are really buying the previous owner.  Look for a good owner.

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Few people "get" this.

[gsengle]

  On 5/30/2017 at 11:54 PM, KLRDMD said:

Few people "get" this.

Best yet get a demo flight with the owner. See how he/she treats it in the air too.


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[Steve W]

My pre-buy found 2 issues that the seller fixed, one that no one would have ever noticed, nor would it probably have ever mattered, and a new windshield. The pre-buy paid for itself, and then I had them make it an annual, so I'm good for 11 more months.

But at the end of the day the entire purchase, excluding the plane, probably cost $8k including flying to see it, pre-buy, flying to pick it up, transition training and flying it home. So really for me, the pre-buy was a small investment, especially since it was close to needing an annual. But I can understand not doing one if you trust the owner and shops who have been doing the work and you're familiar enough with the type to know what you're looking for.

 

[xcrmckenna]

  On 5/30/2017 at 11:52 PM, mccdeuce said:

Not sure I agree with you and thats a bit harsh.  His point is very true.  If you dig through the forums a large portion of people will tell you you have to have a PPI or your first annual will be very expensive.  And there are tons of threads covering this and the result of people who skip the inspection and end up with that oh so special unicorn that costs them 50 AMUs to get airworthy again.
In buying my Mooney I sent one to PPI.  Didn't get a great vibe on the aircraft and needed a second opinion.  Walked away.  2nd time around I really didn't get a good vibe from the owner, tried to send it to PPI and he sold it to someone else while under contract (theres a thread on here somewhere - I still hope the other guy who bought it sight unseen is doing well)
Third and the aircraft I bought I did not send to PPI.  It was the most expensive of the 3 aircraft.  The owner had tried to do best by the aircraft.  And you can tell that.  A lot of time by the conversations you have on the phone.  Even more when you look at the aircraft.  Remove one panel and you can tell a lot about the aircraft.  (the avionics access panel - look back there and if its full of droppings and is a mess odds are not in your favor)  Now I myself did a lengthy inspection of the aircraft and have had my first annual.  Couple minor things - need the rigging adjusted for example.  But in all straight forward.
When you are buying an old airplane you are really buying the previous owner.  Look for a good owner.
 

I agree with you that you buy the previous owner, but there isn't anything wrong with buying the plane on its merits as well. I think you missed my point and other things Ken has said. He wants it one way saying we don't have to listen to the masses about having to have a pre buy done and wants to gloat that he has even bought planes site unseen.

Yet for whatever reason can sit there and say someone has to buy a plane in 45 days or they are really not looking to buy. And it doesn't take two years. Sorry but that is ignorant or arrogance, I'm just not smart enough to know which it is. And what is sad is he doesn't even get the irony of what he is saying. "You don't have to have a ppi because other people say you have to, but if you don't own a plane in 45 days you really don't want to own one".

I don't think the majority of people that talk about having a ppi done are saying you HAVE TO DO IT. They are simply saying if you don't know what you are looking for its best that you do and best to take it to a mechanic with Mooney knowledge. How is that bad advice? Maybe he doesn't know the difference between advice and absolute. Because this thread has NO advice in it just purely how it is "in his eyes". Or maybe he just expects everyone to know everything like he does.

Even better he says he knows all the right questions to ask a plane seller to determine if he should buy the airplane or not. Maybe he should write a book.


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[MIm20c]

  On 5/31/2017 at 12:40 AM, xcrmckenna said:

Yet for whatever reason can sit there and say someone has to buy a plane in 45 days or they are really not looking to buy. And it doesn't take two years. Sorry but that is ignorant or arrogance, I'm just not smart enough to know which it is. And what is sad is he doesn't even get the irony of what he is saying. "You don't have to have a ppi because other people say you have to, but if you don't own a plane in 45 days you really don't want to own one".

...

Even better he says he knows all the right questions to ask a plane seller to determine if he should buy the airplane or not. Maybe he should write a book.
 

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I'm thinking after selling 13 aircraft he tries to avoid buyers that need a couple of years to figure out what exact model and features they want in an aircraft.  I wouldn't take it personally.

I would buy the book "finding the perfect plane, revision XIV"

Edited May 31, 2017 by MIm20c

[thinwing]

  On 5/31/2017 at 1:18 AM, MIm20c said:

I'm thinking after selling 13 aircraft he tries to avoid buyers that need a couple of years to figure out what exact model and features they want in an aircraft.  I wouldn't take it personally.

I would buy the book "finding the perfect plane, revision XIV"

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[Andy95W]

To a certain degree, I think people might be comparing apples and oranges here.

Ken (KLRDMD) has a lot of experience buying and selling airplanes and doesn't go cheap- he wants a top notch airplane and is willing to pay a top notch price.  He doesn't really need a PPI because he has the means and experience to find a previous owner who has taken good care of his airplane and Ken is willing to pay what the airplane is worth.

For the rest of us who can't afford that level of airplane, we end up looking for the 50 year old decently equipped airplane that is in our price range and to a certain degree we hope for the best.  To hedge our bets we get a PPI to make sure that nothing egregious hits us in the first few years of ownership, and there isn't rampant structural corrosion that will make the airplane financially unrepairable.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm of the opinion and have stated it multiple times around here that one should always by a top of the line airplane. Buy the most expensive airplane available in the model.

This is most important with the vintage Mooneys and gets less important as you get closer to a new Mooney. 

So if one has the funds, one can buy the nicest J available. Or likewise buy the nicest K which will be a 252 or Encore most likely. If that's out of reach, then buy the nicest F, or down to the nicest E, etc. If you're looking for a budget C, I don't think you can afford a Mooney. Because more often than not, that budget C will cost more than the nicest C available that you passed up as too expensive. This theory has been unfortunately validated by eight members here on MooneySpace within the last year. I won't mention any names.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but the odds don't favor finding that exception.

[Guest]

Buying the most expensive airplane in the model you are searching for is not guarantee of success, buying the best plane in the class for a price you can afford makes more sense.

Buying a plane with a killer stack of avionics when you have no interest in IFR flight is a waste of money.  Why pay for a fully coupled auto pilot when you actually want to hand fly your new Mooney.

Suppose this plane with the killer panel has terminal wing spar corrosion or terminal steel cage corrosion, then what?  In the mean time you may have turned down a nice dry country airplane with no corrosion and a panel which suits your flying need. 

Clarence

[kpaul]

The first plane, M20G, I had a scheduled for a PPI, the owners son landed short doing power off 180s with a CFI, collapsed the gear - I walked away. No money spent.

Then I had a PPI done on a M20F, the A&P that did the inspection said in his opinion it was not airworthy - I walked away. $1200 - Money well spent.

The second M20F was less than a month out of a DMax annual, the owner flew it from Texas to NW Florida just so I could look at it.  I did not get a PPI - Spent $60 AMU and counting.  But no issues that a PPI would have caught.  I am happy with the money spent.

My answer is - It depends on the owner, the buyer and the airplane.  Like many things in life there is no definite answer.

[xcrmckenna]

  On 5/31/2017 at 12:22 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

Yeah, Paul and I have butted heads over his purchasing methodology for a while now. He is right on if you need or even want all the bells and whistles. Otherwise, though, you are just paying for a bunch of depreciating equipment that is often both expensive to maintain and relatively quickly obsolete.
Jim

I agree.

The difference in prices between models of J's can swing almost $100,000 from the first year of the model to the last year of the model. Just because I can't afford a $200,000 1997 201j does that mean I shouldn't buy a pristine 1977 J at $82,500? That is why I used AOPA's vref as a guide to compare each year. I wasn't trying to find a 1997 201 J for $82,500. But a plane in my price range that I wanted. Then evaluating everything that plane has and has gone through. The condition it was in and the value it had to get it to where I wanted it to be if it wasn't there.

Maybe I'm misunderstand what he means by a person should buy the most expensive model.

I don't believe the price of the airplane dictates the value you get from the plane. The most expensive airplane can have spar corrosion just the same as the cheapest.




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[gsxrpilot]

This is done a lot better in person over a couple of beers, but looking at my MooneySpace map, that's not gonna happen so I'll take another stab at explanation here.

First of all, a plane should be fully inspected by an A&P who knows what he's doing for a very thorough PPI. I don't recommend buying any plane for any money without one. And personally I want Don Maxwell doing that inspection. My exception to this rule is a Maxwell currently maintained plane sold by All American. I trust those guys. So spar, cage, or any corrosion is a deal breaker no matter what. So I think the whole corrosion issue is a red herring. Let's just all assume we're inspecting for that. My 252 had spar cap corrosion, but no inspection would have found it. So there's always risk. But buying a cheap airplane or expensive airplane is no better insurance against corrosion.

I'll say the same for engines. They must be inspected but there is always risk.

With those assumptions, a well equipped airplane is a better value than a stock plane. As an example, I've looked at a couple of E's recently that are mostly stock. Wing leveler, no GPS, no speed mods - asking price $50K. Find a top of the line E with an Stec30/altitude hold, WAAS GPS, one piece windshield, gap seals, cowl, and the asking price will be $65K. Upgrading the $50K E to the $65K E will cost upwards of $40K. And when it comes time to sell, it will still sell at $65K while the other one will be more likely to lose value and even if it doesn't it will take much longer to sell. 

I don't see that maintenance will be any difference and in fact it's more likely that you'd spend money on the wing leveler keeping it functional rather than spending money on the Stec that is a much more recent install and this goes for GPS's, Radios, Transponders, etc.

Even if you don't plan to use the autopilot, or the GPS, or ever fly more than 100 miles and only on sunny days, it doesn't change the numbers. 

I will agree with @xcrmckenna that a 1987 J can be just as good a value as a 1997 J. But it needs to have a working autopilot, WAAS GPS, HSI, and engine monitor. Because again, for just a few dollars more, you'll find one with all that stuff.

As with everything there are exceptions... and the above theory matters less and less the newer the model.

Finally, again, all of this assumes a corrosion free airframe, corrosion free engine, good compressions, tanks that don't leak, etc, etc, etc...

[xcrmckenna]

  On 5/31/2017 at 6:09 PM, gsxrpilot said:

This is done a lot better in person over a couple of beers, but looking at my MooneySpace map, that's not gonna happen so I'll take another stab at explanation here.
First of all, a plane should be fully inspected by an A&P who knows what he's doing for a very thorough PPI. I don't recommend buying any plane for any money without one. And personally I want Don Maxwell doing that inspection. My exception to this rule is a Maxwell currently maintained plane sold by All American. I trust those guys. So spar, cage, or any corrosion is a deal breaker no matter what. So I think the whole corrosion issue is a red herring. Let's just all assume we're inspecting for that. My 252 had spar cap corrosion, but no inspection would have found it. So there's always risk. But buying a cheap airplane or expensive airplane is no better insurance against corrosion.
I'll say the same for engines. They must be inspected but there is always risk.
With those assumptions, a well equipped airplane is a better value than a stock plane. As an example, I've looked at a couple of E's recently that are mostly stock. Wing leveler, no GPS, no speed mods - asking price $50K. Find a top of the line E with an Stec30/altitude hold, WAAS GPS, one piece windshield, gap seals, cowl, and the asking price will be $65K. Upgrading the $50K E to the $65K E will cost upwards of $40K. And when it comes time to sell, it will still sell at $65K while the other one will be more likely to lose value and even if it doesn't it will take much longer to sell. 
I don't see that maintenance will be any difference and in fact it's more likely that you'd spend money on the wing leveler keeping it functional rather than spending money on the Stec that is a much more recent install and this goes for GPS's, Radios, Transponders, etc.
Even if you don't plan to use the autopilot, or the GPS, or ever fly more than 100 miles and only on sunny days, it doesn't change the numbers. 
I will agree with [mention=12769]xcrmckenna[/mention] that a 1987 J can be just as good a value as a 1997 J. But it needs to have a working autopilot, WAAS GPS, HSI, and engine monitor. Because again, for just a few dollars more, you'll find one with all that stuff.
As with everything there are exceptions... and the above theory matters less and less the newer the model.
Finally, again, all of this assumes a corrosion free airframe, corrosion free engine, good compressions, tanks that don't leak, etc, etc, etc...

I should be back in Texas this time next year, I'll buy the beer:)


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[gsxrpilot]

  On 5/31/2017 at 6:16 PM, xcrmckenna said:

I should be back in Texas this time next year, I'll buy the beer:)

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You're on!  I'm not actually in Texas today either. I'm in Addis Ababa. (How many of you know where that is without looking it up :-)

[xcrmckenna]

  On 5/31/2017 at 6:17 PM, gsxrpilot said:

You're on!  I'm not actually in Texas today either. I'm in Addis Ababa. (How many of you know where that is without looking it up :-)

Is that in Oregon??? If not I'll need google maps.


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[gsxrpilot]

  On 5/31/2017 at 6:18 PM, xcrmckenna said:

Is that in Oregon??? If not I'll need google maps.

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Hahahahahahah... no