Landing Gear Down

[zulu168]

I am still working on my GA license. And had a chat with a retired Air Canada pilot and I told him that I plane to buy a Mooney. His first word was "they are fast":) and he said being a new pilot I might have trouble getting it insured. He also mentioned that majority of the time pilots tend to forget to drop the landing gears and insurance company knows that it's very common. He also ask me why a Mooney and why not buy a Cessna with fix gears. I told him the beauty of plane to me is retractble.  Just wondering if this has happened or even came to close happening to anyone here. I am in Toronto and and would love to get together with any Mooney owner in the area for coffee. 

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, zulu168 said:

I am still working on my GA license. And had a chat with a retired Air Canada pilot and I told him that I plane to buy a Mooney. His first word was "they are fast":) and he said being a new pilot I might have trouble getting it insured. He also mentioned that majority of the time pilots tend to forget to drop the landing gears and insurance company knows that it's very common. He also ask me why a Mooney and why not buy a Cessna with fix gears. I told him the beauty of plane to me is retractble.  Just wondering if this has happened or even came to close happening to anyone here. I am in Toronto and and would love to get together with any Mooney owner in the area for coffee. 

Many have and many haven't...yet!

i had no trouble with insurance. With 200hrs and 10 in type 60k hull insurance (67 F model) and 1mm smooth liability cost $1200 the first year. By the time I had 100hrs in type it was under $1000.

[Skates97]

If you have looked at your mission profile, found that a Mooney fits it, and your heart is set on a Mooney don't let people talk you out of it. Myself and a few others here bought a Mooney just after completing our PPL. Insurance will be higher than someone with complex time, but it is not hard to get coverage. I didn't have any of the brokers I contacted say they couldn't insure me even though I was under 60 hours and had no complex time, it was just a question of whether I wanted to pay what they were asking.

As for forgetting to put the gear down, that has happened to pilots with low hours and pilots with high hours. It hasn't happened to me yet... Not that it can't, but I follow my checklists and as long as I continue to do so and don't allow myself to be distracted I anticipate continued success landing on the wheels instead of the belly.

13 minutes ago, zulu168 said:

He also ask me why a Mooney and why not buy a Cessna with fix gears. I told him the beauty of plane to me is retractble. 

And there is something very cool about lifting off and tucking the gear away. For me it felt like I was finally flying a real plane after my time in trainers.

Edit: Seeing Shadrach's post I thought I would include my numbers. I bought a 65 D that the insurance wrote as a "C" because it had been converted to retractable gear and CS prop. I had 58.6 total hours, no complex time, (so obviously no time in type), 36k hull coverage, 1mm liability, no deductibles, and it is $1,525 for the first year. I will see what it drops when I go to renew. On pace for over 100 hours this first year of ownership.

[Simon]

I am personally a little terrified of transitioning from a fixed trainer to retractable.  Maybe terrified isn't the right word - more like paranoid.

Having spend all of my fixed wing time with a permanent undercarriage it's never been a part of my landing checklist.

I'd be interested in how other people have made this transition.

I believe there are AOA indicators that sync with the landing gear position and will give you a 'gear up' warning.  Thought this might be a good backup,

although there is no substitute for good flying skills of course.

s

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

30 minutes ago, zulu168 said:

 He also mentioned that majority of the time pilots tend to forget to drop the landing gears and insurance company knows that it's very common. 

Ahhhhhh, that would not be accurate at all. If retract pilots forget the gear a MAJORITY OF THE TIME we could never insure them and they would be in the shop all the time.  Transitioning to an early model Mooney (C,D,E,F) would not be THAT difficult.  It will take some hours and a serious attitude about the training but it is clearly doable.  YOU and Skates97 may have less of a possibility of a gear up than many who transition after many more hours in fixed gear.  You're taking your training right from Private Pilot to complex and conditioning your approach to landing with the gear being something in your checklist (and a last check for the second or third time on short final).

One thing that helped me was my instructor started making me say "gear, down and locked" in my C150 during my pre-landing check list.  He even made me look out the window at the gear and verify it was down.  Seemed funky at the time but sure helped in the transition to my first Mooney.  It all comes down to instruction and your commitment to your checklists (and a little paranoia !).

Tom

 

[Hank]

Like Richard, I bought my Mooney with 62 hours the month after my checkride. Insurance was brutal the first year, but I flew 100 hours and the next year it was reduced by 50%. The reduction would not have paid rental to get 10 hours complex time. The next year was basically the same, then I picked up my Instrument rating and it fell another third. After moving, I changed to Falcon Insurance and saved another 20%.

Lots of pilots with hours from near zero to 20,000+ have landed gear up. It will be covered in your training to get the Complex Endorsement [and High Performance if needed], and covered again in your Mooney transition training, along with Emergency Gear Extension. I'm also paranoid, because making that one Oops! will most likely end my flying career simply from the finances.

Mooneys all have an alarm that comes on at reduced throttle settings if the gear are not down. That's a nice thing to have! and then there are your checklists, and don't you already make a GUMPS check in the pattern? U is for Undercarriage. I prefer this one:

• G  gear down
• U  is the undercarriage down?
• M  make sure the gear is down.
• P  put the gear down!
• S  @#$%!! Is the gear down???

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Hank said:

• G  gear down
• U  is the undercarriage down?
• M  make sure the gear is down.
• P  put the gear down!
• S  @#$%!! Is the gear down???

I knew there was a secret to remembering!

[Skates97]

13 minutes ago, Simon said:

I am personally a little terrified of transitioning from a fixed trainer to retractable.  Maybe terrified isn't the right word - more like paranoid.

Having spend all of my fixed wing time with a permanent undercarriage it's never been a part of my landing checklist.

I'd be interested in how other people have made this transition.

I believe there are AOA indicators that sync with the landing gear position and will give you a 'gear up' warning.  Thought this might be a good backup,

although there is no substitute for good flying skills of course.

s

 

Paranoid is ok, it makes sure that you do that gear check when you put the gear down, when you turn base, and when you turn final. As Hank pointed out, now the GUMPS check actually makes sense. I say it out loud as I perform each step. I don't know about other retracts, the Mooney is the only one I have flown, but I'm still not quite sure how you would completely forget the gear in a Mooney. It is just hard to slow it down without the gear down... At some point in the pattern/on approach you would be looking at the ASI and thinking "why the heck can't I slow down..."

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Simon said:

I knew there was a secret to remembering!

Unfortunately, "those that have" will tell you, the same thing that makes you forget the gear will also make you forget the checklist.

If the plane just doesn't want to slow up on final approach.....that's a clue.

[Yetti]

The funny part is you can get a nice mooney cheaper than a nice c172.   And you can actually get somewhere.   I was outrunning a c182 and not even WOT. 

[Simon]

3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The funny part is you can get a nice mooney cheaper than a nice c172.   And you can actually get somewhere.   I was outrunning a c182 and not even WOT. 

Because Mooney!

[Yetti]

Being paranoid is good.  I need to film myself again.   Last time I did I checked 4 times that the gear was down.   I know I do at least three checks.

[Simon]

14 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Unfortunately, "those that have" will tell you, the same thing that makes you forget the gear will also make you forget the checklist.

If the plane just doesn't want to slow up on final approach.....that's a clue.

One great thing my instructor taught me for landing is the 'cookie recipe'.  If you use the same ingredients every time: RPM, flap settings, vertical descent and speed you'll end up with cookies (you'll land).

Leaving the gear up would mess with the recipe and you'd have too much speed.  No cookies!

 

[bonal]

Spent all my time in my 150 then bought our Mooney. To say a gear up will never happen is not responsible but it's up to you as PIC to follow procedures with all stages of each flight from start up to shut down. When training in the Cessna the gumps includes looking out the window at the fixed gear as well as confirming there was indeed a prop out front. When I transitioned into the complex these checks were natural and of course made sense. No need to be fearful of a complex as long as you follow your procedures. And the gear warning horn will sound as long as you don't drop the gear.

[Northern Mooniac]

One thing to keep in mind with a mooney is that on approach, the planes are so fast that depending on your plane, you may use your gear to slow you down. I have a m20k and part of my approach is to drop the gear before my flaps to get the speed down so I don't have to pull so much power and shock cool my engine.

I also have GUMP 75-80 on my panel so I always keep that in mind as well.

 

It's not a big deal, learning manifold pressure, turbos, intercoolers was the more challenging part for me. gear is easy!

[Mooneymite]

Just now, Simon said:

Once great thing my instructor taught me for landing is the 'cookie recipe'.  If you use the same ingredients every time: RPM, flap settings, vertical descent

you'll end up with cookies (you'll land).

Absolutely sound instruction.

And that is exactly why gear-ups often happen on go-arounds, or when something unusual happens in the pattern.  The sequence/habit pattern is broken.

[Northern Mooniac]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

Absolutely sound instruction.

And that is exactly why gear-ups often happen on go-arounds, or when something unusual happens in the pattern.  The sequence/habit pattern is broken.

Yup! I just do my go arounds with my gear down, they don't happen often and there is some assurance that I know  my gear is already down and one less thing to worry about. a circuit won't take long so not really worth it to put the gear up....

Long story short...don't worry about the gear! go get your mooney!

[Simon]

9 minutes ago, Northern Mooniac said:

Long story short...don't worry about the gear! go get your mooney!

Wilco!

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

I am personally a little terrified of transitioning from a fixed trainer to retractable.  Maybe terrified isn't the right word - more like paranoid.

Having spend all of my fixed wing time with a permanent undercarriage it's never been a part of my landing checklist.

I'd be interested in how other people have made this transition.

I believe there are AOA indicators that sync with the landing gear position and will give you a 'gear up' warning.  Thought this might be a good backup,

although there is no substitute for good flying skills of course.

s

 

Simon,

You said the magic word to prevent a gear up landing - checklist. If you get in the habit of using one every time, your chances of a gear up are immensely reduced.

Many of us flying our Mooneys have a checklist we use AND go through a GUMPS recital to insure the last call from the tower or another plane in the pattern did not disrupt us so much we forgot the gear.

And most of us, though not all, started out with fixed gear planes. If we can transition, you can, too.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Simon said:

I am personally a little terrified of transitioning from a fixed trainer to retractable.  Maybe terrified isn't the right word - more like paranoid.

Having spend all of my fixed wing time with a permanent undercarriage it's never been a part of my landing checklist.

I'd be interested in how other people have made this transition.

I believe there are AOA indicators that sync with the landing gear position and will give you a 'gear up' warning.  Thought this might be a good backup,

although there is no substitute for good flying skills of course.

s

 

As others have mentioned, the paranoia is good because it'll keep you vigilant about making sure the gear is down.   When you get comfortable (or complacent) is when you have to be even more intentionally vigilant.

I'm still in the process of obtaining a Mooney, but I've been flying an Arrow around in the meanwhile and the same sorts of things apply.   Learn what the gear horn sounds like, and don't put yourself in a position where it's on a lot so that it never gets to the point where it ever sounds "normal" or "okay".  Even in an Arrow, dropping the gear is nice to get the airplane slowed down, so making that your first go-to technique for slowing down for landing is useful.  This depends partly on the safe deployment speed of the gear; in an Arrow you can just about drop the gear at cruise, so it's easy that way.

Doing the GUMPS checklist frequently is always okay.   I usually do it several times before landing.   Get used to visually checking the gear status lamps frequently whenever you're in a configuration to land or approaching landing.  You can also put your hand on the gear handle as much as you want during approach and get used to that "feeling" right, too.

Get in the habit of "flaps, prop, mixture, gear, cleared to land" verbal checklist to yourself on short final.   I learned this while getting my complex checkout, and it's been surprising to me how useful even the "cleared to land" verification is at that point.   Sometimes you get forgotten by the controller, and you don't want to touchdown without a clearance at a controlled airport.

And you can do a GUMPS or gear check in a fixed gear aircraft, too.   Verifying the gear is down or hasn't fallen off helps to keep the habit alive.

The Arrow I fly is a rental, and a not-infrequent thing to happen is that the last person flew it at night and turned the lamp intensities way down.   I've done go-arounds to get time to figure out why the lamps aren't green, usually because somebody just turned them down.   I always have to relearn where the dimmer is in that airplane because it's not in an obvious place.   But the point is just get a system or systems and use it, multiple times per approach doesn't hurt.

 

[chrisk]

Many Mooneys have had a gear up landing.   The result is typically the need for a new prop, belly skin, and an engine tear down inspection.   These are often repaired and the air frame continues with a long life.  Compared to some other planes, the damage is typically less.  This shows in the insurance rate.  More than a fixed gear plane, but less than a Bonanza.   That said, gear ups in planes are not common.   I have no data, but I suspect gear ups in Mooneys are less often than some other planes (early model Bonanzas where the flap and gear are co-located)

 

 

[RobertGary1]

I have thousands of hours in Mooneys and I still worry about forgetting the gear. Sure you can say checklist + gumps + final check but the human brain is still capable of forgetting stuff. The most common issue I see with pilots as a  CFI is that they get used to running the checklist at a specific time of the flight (say downwind) so when their work gets upset by an unexpected straight in they forget it. I added a voice annunication system to my Mooney as it seems many pilots have mistaken the gear warning horn in the flare with the stall horn which you always hear in the flare. Hopefully that will increase my odds of finishing my career without a gear up but I do still worry about it.

 

-Robert

[gsengle]

I don't worry about landing gear up. I check gear at every check. Downwind, base, final, and an extra short final gear only check. Slowing up that much is really hard without the gear down and would trigger the gear not deployed alarm which is really distinctive. Even in an unusual situation it would be pretty darn obvious how little drag i had as I roared down to the runway at well over 100kts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[midlifeflyer]

I will add my vote to the others who said having a consistent SOP for putting the gear down at the same time is one of the best ways of avoiding a gear up. The idea is to do it so consistently that it becomes a habit. 

I have two, one for VFR and one for IFR. IFR, glideslope intercept means gear down. For VFR and visual approaches, within 3 miles of the airport and at pattern altitude means the same thing.

Beyond that a bit of healthy paranoia. I find myself checking gear, prop, boost pump multiple times as I get closer to the runway.

[RobertGary1]

I've never forgotten the gear (knock of wood) but I did land about 15 years ago and realized I'd forgotten flaps. So the notation that "A good pilot would realize the plane is floating more" is doggy doo. 

I've also been in some Mooneys where the gear and stall horn sound the same. The gear horn can break in strange ways and getting stuck in solid mode causes it to sound the same. These pilots didn't realize they were supposed to be different. Fortunately its a cheap SonAlert. I have a couple on my boat I can borrow from if I need one in a pinch.

-Robert

Edited April 20, 2017 by RobertGary1