ADS-B Out/In solutions for WAAS and non-WAAS Mooneys

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, 231LV said:

Hmmm.....I will have to verify....avionics shop manager told me I could get In/Out with GTX 330 upgrade.

The only way the GTX 330 ES in anyway affects ADSB IN is that since you now have an OUT signal, you will be triggering more towers and activity which will show up on your iPad only so long as you have an ADSB IN receiver such as a Stratus.  To be sure, the GTX330ES does NOT talk to, or interface with an iPad.

I've installed two of them in different airplanes and never fly without an iPad.

[orionflt]

you still have your traffic from the 330 on your 430/530 or equivalent.

 

Brian 

[N6758N]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

The only way the GTX 330 ES in anyway affects ADSB IN is that since you now have an OUT signal, you will be triggering more towers and activity which will show up on your iPad only so long as you have an ADSB IN receiver such as a Stratus.  To be sure, the GTX330ES does NOT talk to, or interface with an iPad.

I've installed two of them in different airplanes and never fly without an iPad.

Yup, the good thing about having the Stratus in addition to a 330ES is that you get more information on your GPS display and iPad because the stratus is 'boosted' by the transponder. There is a setting in the config page of the 330ES that lets it know you have a portable in receiver installed in the vicinity of the transponder (in the aircraft). I have been super happy with my 430W and 330ES setup with my stratus involved. I have yet to see any traffic outside that wasn't displayed on the 430W. 

[Marauder]

Hmmm.....I will have to verify....avionics shop manager told me I could get In/Out with GTX 330 upgrade.

I hope your shop didn't position it incorrectly. I doubt Garmin would have a vested interest in providing the "in" capability on the GTX-330 when the GTX-345 is their flagship product for this.

They may have positioned it as "when you upgrade the 330, you will now get full traffic" without telling you how the traffic would be received.


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[Marauder]

Holy crap! I can't believe how much its gone up, I think a year ago it was 3,500. I won't tell you what I paid for mine since it was dealer cost...I guess Garmin figures more people will just jump to the 650 instead of shelling out all the cash for a simple upgrade. 

I'm not surprised. Being in the electronics field, one way to motivate people to migrate to newer technologies is to increase the cost of supporting the older ones. This would include any upgrades or modifications. That's what I would do.


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[Marauder]

you still have your traffic from the 330 on your 430/530 or equivalent.
 
Brian 

You're referring to TIS-A. It was on its way out. It was never fully deployed either. You'll find it around certain airports but not a lot elsewhere. Here is an old article on it:

https://www.aopa.org/advocacy/advocacy-briefs/air-traffic-services-brief-traffic-information-services


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[N6758N]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

I'm not surprised. Being in the electronics field, one way to motivate people to migrate to newer technologies is to increase the cost of supporting the older ones. This would include any upgrades or modifications. That's what I would do.


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Chris, whenever you are ready to upgrade from the 650, I will be happy to take it off your hands! I will even take it out of your airplane free of charge for you! 

[231LV]

Just got off the phone with the avionics manager and he confirmed the 330 ES is OUT only so compliant but no IN. Running through different scenarios (substitute GTN 650 for a 430 WAAS upgrade, the 330 with a 345, go with an L3 Lynx, ect) and the AMU's start spinning up rapidly. The GTN 650 is an $11k box plus 40 hours to install. The 345 is a $6k box...the Lynx is "dead nuts" expensive at $8k plus install...so I choose to spend the $5.5k on the 430 WAAS upgrade and the $1.5k upgrade of the 330 and call it good for now. Eventually a GTN 650 and 345??....maybe but not on this go around. I do see traffic with the 330 and if I want to boost it, I can get a Stratus. I'm compliant and I live to fight another day. At some point, I guess I have to start thinking about just how much money do I want to put into avionics? The sky is the limit but my mission hardly warrants all the bells and whistles.....

[gsxrpilot]

@231LV The Stratus 2's are easy to pick up on the used market. I'll have on for sale as soon as my plane is out of the shop.

[Marauder]

50 minutes ago, 231LV said:

Just got off the phone with the avionics manager and he confirmed the 330 ES is OUT only so compliant but no IN. Running through different scenarios (substitute GTN 650 for a 430 WAAS upgrade, the 330 with a 345, go with an L3 Lynx, ect) and the AMU's start spinning up rapidly. The GTN 650 is an $11k box plus 40 hours to install. The 345 is a $6k box...the Lynx is "dead nuts" expensive at $8k plus install...so I choose to spend the $5.5k on the 430 WAAS upgrade and the $1.5k upgrade of the 330 and call it good for now. Eventually a GTN 650 and 345??....maybe but not on this go around. I do see traffic with the 330 and if I want to boost it, I can get a Stratus. I'm compliant and I live to fight another day. At some point, I guess I have to start thinking about just how much money do I want to put into avionics? The sky is the limit but my mission hardly warrants all the bells and whistles.....

I was afraid that was what you were going to hear. I would pick up a Stratus, GDL-39 or one of the other portable "in" solutions that will work with your iPad app and call it a day. The numbers for upgrading are crazy expensive.

Just a comment on another option. A variant of the GTX-345 and the L-3 9000 (not the $8,000 L-3 9000+ box -- that one has active traffic turned on) have built in WAAS. If you don't need the WAAS capability on the 430 for LPV approaches, it might be better to upgrade to one of those boxes and then when you are ready to upgrade the 430, you'll have saved the WAAS upgrade cost of it. The GTX-345 will display traffic and weather on the 430 as well as ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot. The L-3 I believe only shows traffic at this time on the 430 but will work with a number of apps including ForeFlight, FlyQ, WingX and a couple of others. The only downside going this route is I heard, others can confirm, that a 430 that has not been upgraded to WAAS won't be serviced by Garmin. If this were my plane, I would consider the WAAS version of the 345.

[Bunti]

7 hours ago, 231LV said:

Hmmm.....I will have to verify....avionics shop manager told me I could get In/Out with GTX 330 upgrade.

The GTX 330 with the ES update will for sure give you no ADSB IN. It will give you ADSB OUT, if connected to a WAAS GPS. But thats it. I can tell you from my own experience. I had the 330 with the ES upgrade for some years and wanted ADSB IN and traded the 330 ES into a GTX345 and added a GTN 750 as position source.

Stefan

[bradp]

This looks like a heck of a deal (if there ever was one) for ADS-B transponders.  

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-k10-0027603.html

The good is that you wouldn't need to update the GPS box unless you want LPV and would save $5000 (there's a cheaper way to do that WAAS upgrade for the true CB club for those interested (CSOM - cheap son of mooney).  

 

Footnote:  super CB method for upgrade of 430 / 530 to WAAS.  You can run RG-400 pre wired to your panel (it's not hard you just need to be willing to pull the pilots seat and sidewall). Buy a 430W off Alan or chase or eBay for about $6500 including tray and antenna. Sell yours non waas 430 box for about $4500.  It's a slide in replacement and as long as your AP is okay doing the BNC and TNC connector crimp, he/she logs that,  you do the slide in and you're in business for less than what Garmin will charge the upgrade or the ~10 hrs labor the avionics shop will charge to pull the interior panel and run a coax.  

[LANCECASPER]

18 hours ago, bradp said:

This looks like a heck of a deal (if there ever was one) for ADS-B transponders.  

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/gmn-k10-0027603.html

The good is that you wouldn't need to update the GPS box unless you want LPV and would save $5000 (there's a cheaper way to do that WAAS upgrade for the true CB club for those interested (CSOM - cheap son of mooney).  

 

Footnote:  super CB method for upgrade of 430 / 530 to WAAS.  You can run RG-400 pre wired to your panel (it's not hard you just need to be willing to pull the pilots seat and sidewall). Buy a 430W off Alan or chase or eBay for about $6500 including tray and antenna. Sell yours non waas 430 box for about $4500.  It's a slide in replacement and as long as your AP is okay doing the BNC and TNC connector crimp, he/she logs that,  you do the slide in and you're in business for less than what Garmin will charge the upgrade or the ~10 hrs labor the avionics shop will charge to pull the interior panel and run a coax.  

That is a great deal on the GTX335 with GDL 39 3D.

[bradp]

Yeah sorry should have mentioned about that antenna.  -Brad

[231LV]

Since I started this thread a couple of months ago, I have progressed through spending a lot of money to the point that I now have an upgraded Garmin 430W and an upgraded Garmin 330ES sitting in the plane. I also have a repaired pitot static line (split in the tail), the privilege of paying a bunch of shipping and tax and a repaired bent pin on the 430 slip in mount. Unfortunately, the ADS-B is still inop.....don't know why....sent the avionics shop manager a pic of the transponder with a message "NO ADSB"  in the upper corner. While I wait to get this resolved. I'm playing with a used Stratus 1 which a buddy sold me for a couple hundred bucks. I'm wondering if anyone put one of these in their plane and if so, where did you position it to try and minimize heat?

[Bunti]

Did you switch your ADSB out in the Transponder setup to on?

[231LV]

Nope...the avionics shop told me everything works perfectly...next weekend, they are sending up the manager (2 hour drive each way) to  "fix a simple programming problem". .....I wonder if that is it?

Edited May 27, 2017 by 231LV
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[jaylw314]

Not to hijack the thread, but for ADS-B IN, I've been using a Stratux.  It's the ultimate CB solution, cost me about $140 to put together and has the same functionality as the other portable ADS-B IN solutions out there.  It integrates with most EFB's out there including Foreflight, although I only use Fltplan Go (yet another CB solution for free).

I've scheduled to put in a KT-74 for the ADS-B OUT part in a couple months, I'll update people on how that goes.  I already have a Garmin 530W.  My estimate was $4300 ($2500 for the KT-74, and the rest parts and labor).  I'm hoping the labor ends up less than the 16 hours they are estimating, they're an avionics repair station but they've only done UAT installs so far, so this should be much easier.  I should get $1100 back ($500 from FAA rebate, $500 BK rebate, and $100 trade in for old KT-76A).   

[Marauder]

9 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Not to hijack the thread, but for ADS-B IN, I've been using a Stratux.  It's the ultimate CB solution, cost me about $140 to put together and has the same functionality as the other portable ADS-B IN solutions out there.  It integrates with most EFB's out there including Foreflight, although I only use Fltplan Go (yet another CB solution for free).

I've scheduled to put in a KT-74 for the ADS-B OUT part in a couple months, I'll update people on how that goes.  I already have a Garmin 530W.  My estimate was $4300 ($2500 for the KT-74, and the rest parts and labor).  I'm hoping the labor ends up less than the 16 hours they are estimating, they're an avionics repair station but they've only done UAT installs so far, so this should be much easier.  I should get $1100 back ($500 from FAA rebate, $500 BK rebate, and $100 trade in for old KT-76A).   

I just flew with someone in my plane who had a Stratux box with him. He was having issues with it until I found out the receiver was still in his flight bag! Even with it in the flight bag, it was picking up TIS-B traffic because of my ADS-B out.

I recently installed an L-3 9000. It will work on a number of different apps, I am curious to see how well it works on the other apps. I have FLTPLN GO already tested. Interesting how it displays traffic.

[N6758N]

On 5/27/2017 at 2:23 PM, 231LV said:

Nope...the avionics shop told me everything works perfectly...next weekend, they are sending up the manager (2 hour drive each way) to  "fix a simple programming problem". .....I wonder if that is it?

Most likely its a configuration issue, either with the 430W or the 330ES, or it could be they missed a wire. I can take pics of my config pages when I get a chance to see if your's match. 

[N6758N]

330ES should be something like this.

[EricJ]

On 5/27/2017 at 11:23 AM, 231LV said:

Nope...the avionics shop told me everything works perfectly...next weekend, they are sending up the manager (2 hour drive each way) to  "fix a simple programming problem". .....I wonder if that is it?

Can I ask who did the work?   I may need some stuff done before too long.

[231LV]

5 hours ago, EricJ said:

Can I ask who did the work?   I may need some stuff done before too long.

Cutter in Phoenix....I see you are in Scottsdale....they are out of Sky Harbor

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by 231LV

[lamont337]

19 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Not to hijack the thread, but for ADS-B IN, I've been using a Stratux.  It's the ultimate CB solution, cost me about $140 to put together and has the same functionality as the other portable ADS-B IN solutions out there.  It integrates with most EFB's out there including Foreflight, although I only use Fltplan Go (yet another CB solution for free).

+1, Stratux is great. I bought a long USB power cable and the remote antennas. Stratux box lives in the baggage compartment and antennas are mounted on the rear window. Powers on with the master switch. No batteries to worry about and nothing on the dash.

[231LV]

After several trips the Cutter folks made up to my plane plus a couple of phone calls for reconfiguration, I passed ADS-B Out. I'm using a Stratus/Ipad for ADS-B In. I wish I could say it was easy and cheap but it wasn't. A ham handed technician broke my coms wire after coming up to try and remedy the situation; another trip up to repair that and "verify" all was working....except it wasn't. A phone call for reconfiguration followed by a flight and another phone call for reconfiguration before a successful flight and verification. My take on ADS-B for those still researching a solution; there doesn't appear to be anything cheap if you don't already have a WAAS box....Garmin gets  $4k to" WAAS you" plus a transponder...upgraded Garmin 330 to ES is $1.5k plus labor, shipping, tax. Stand alone ADS-B transponders seem to be between $5-8K plus install. The least costly ADS-B compliance I have heard is $5k for a Stratus transponder but the owner already had a Garmin 430W. The installation folks were extremely apologetic and were very quick to try and solve the problem sending a technician on a four hour round trip drive twice plus numerous phone calls. Bottom line is I am good to go and learned a lot.

Edited June 13, 2017 by 231LV