Looking at Mooneys (M20E particularly)

[andymccann]

Hi all.  Just joined your group.  I've become fixated on getting a Mooney.  While I really want a 201, I'm more realistically looking at getting an E model of late 60's vintage.  I'm looking for a little education on dos and don'ts, what to watch out for, how much of a difference does electric gear make?  What do some of the model specifics mean, Chapperal, Super 21?

That should be a good start, thanks for your help.

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

Search is your friend here.... there are more than a few threads that run for hundreds of posts on this very topic.

BTW... you want the manual gear.

[carusoam]

Get prepared for discussions...

1) Transition training

-and-

2) Pre-purchase inspection

 

Are good topics to be familiar with. One protects your butt, the other protects your wallet.  Both are good for you...

Enjoy the hunt.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MBDiagMan]

I have been fixated on a manual gear Mooney since my flying lessons in 1991.  I just finished that process a couple of weeks ago.  Do it now if you can instead of waiting 26 years as I did.

In the course of your research, which searching here will provide much information, remember that much information about the M20C applies to the E model.  I highly recommend the manual gear.

I went through all the Mooney specialist transition training.  I flew with a really great guy and he was a great instructor, but after all that, I really am not convinced that all that was necessary.  You indeed need an instructor familiar with the Mooney, but if you can land an airplane tail low, as long as you know some basic type specific information, I don't think it will be a problem.

The guy who flew with me has transitioned maybe hundreds of pilots to Mooneys, he did emergency operations, steep turns, maneuvers and on and on.  He was exceedingly thorough, but I just don't believe that I would have done any worse with my local guy who has owned, flown and instructed in multiple Mooneys.

As many here will point out, you really need a prebuy done by a Mooney savvy IA.  One of the Mooney authorized warranty centers around the country would be ideal.  As a preliminary step before paying for a prebuy, when you find what you think is a good example, put an IPhone up in the gear well and take videos in all directions and send them to a Mooney savvy guy to look at to see if there is excessive corrosion.  Your prebuy inspector needs to be equipped and knowledgable about the landing gear torque measurement inspection technique as well as other specific inspections.  If the plane passes prebuy, it would be ideal to have a fresh annual if the annual is not recent.

good luck with your search.  I hope it turns out as well as mine.

My $0.02,

[Hank]

 

[takair]

6 hours ago, andymccann said:

Hi all.  Just joined your group.  I've become fixated on getting a Mooney.  While I really want a 201, I'm more realistically looking at getting an E model of late 60's vintage.  I'm looking for a little education on dos and don'ts, what to watch out for, how much of a difference does electric gear make?  What do some of the model specifics mean, Chapperal, Super 21?

That should be a good start, thanks for your help.

 

 

Super-21 was the early designation for the E.  At some point they changed to Chapperal.  They are really all Super.  64 was the first year and only year with round windows.  I love mine, but they do look more vintage and have more screws to remove to get at the engine.  If I were buying today, I would be looking at gear condition and corrosion.  If there is not routine gear work done, then you will likely need to have some done.  Leaky tanks as well.  

Are you in the city?  Lots of us nearby.  What airport will you be based at?  

[SantosDumont]

Have you flown a manual gear Mooney yet?  Unless you have no strength in your right arm, once you fly one you're not going to want anything else. 

Although sometimes I wish I didn't have to be as diligent about making sure that nothing is on the floor before I take off and before I enter the pattern.   A couple days ago my silicone iPad cover was on the floor when I entered the pattern and it got sucked into the J-bar pivot when I put the gear down. It was stuck good. I had to take another lap around the pattern to get it out. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by SantosDumont

[HRM]

8 hours ago, andymccann said:

Hi all.  Just joined your group.  I've become fixated on getting a Mooney.  While I really want a 201, I'm more realistically looking at getting an E model of late 60's vintage.  I'm looking for a little education on dos and don'ts, what to watch out for, how much of a difference does electric gear make?  What do some of the model specifics mean, Chaparral, Super 21?

Where to begin? Let me talk about my Mooney...

The MIstress is a'66 M20E Super 21. She was airworthied in October of 1965, but has all the features (and S/N) of what Mooney designated as the '66 model.

To fly her is to become possessed by her. But that's just the poetic part...

Purchasing an airplane that is over 50 years old must be approached with caution. It had to have been repainted, interior redone, panel upgraded, etc. and those things must be scrutinized carefully unless you seek a 'project plane'. The log books will (or should) paint the picture of where the aircraft has been and where it has come to.

The maintenance history, IMNSHO, is more important than the pre-purchase inspection, although the latter is very important.

Electric gear? Don't be insane.

[MTNM20E]

I purchased a project 1964 M20E  a little over a year ago.  Having never flown a Mooney I jumped into Mooney ownership with both feet and now that I have been flying her for about three months now I am so excited I did.  Amazing aircraft!  Best of luck!  I love my J bar Mooney.

 

[andymccann]

2 hours ago, takair said:

Super-21 was the early designation for the E.  At some point they changed to Chapperal.  They are really all Super.  64 was the first year and only year with round windows.  I love mine, but they do look more vintage and have more screws to remove to get at the engine.  If I were buying today, I would be looking at gear condition and corrosion.  If there is not routine gear work done, then you will likely need to have some done.  Leaky tanks as well.  

Are you in the city?  Lots of us nearby.  What airport will you be based at?  

Hi there.  Yes, I'm in the city.  Most of my flying is out of HPN (Westchester Flying Club), and some out of CDW (Essex County, NJ).  Are you at OXC, let me know if you want to show off your plane?

[mooniac15u]

1 hour ago, SantosDumont said:

Have you flown a manual gear Mooney yet?  Unless you have no strength in your right arm, once you fly one you're not going to want anything else. 

Although sometimes I wish I didn't have to be as diligent about making sure that nothing is on the floor before I take off and before I enter the pattern.   A couple days ago my silicone iPad cover was on the floor when I entered the pattern and it got sucked into the J-bar pivot when I put the gear down. It was stuck good. I had to take another lap around the pattern to get it out. 

I owned a manual gear M20D for 8 years. I'm just as happy with my electric gear M20J now. The manual gear has achieved something akin to cult status around here but it's really just a personal preference. 

[takair]

7 hours ago, andymccann said:

Hi there.  Yes, I'm in the city.  Most of my flying is out of HPN (Westchester Flying Club), and some out of CDW (Essex County, NJ).  Are you at OXC, let me know if you want to show off your plane?

Sure!  Sent a PM.

[Bob_Belville]

7 hours ago, andymccann said:

Hi there.  Yes, I'm in the city.  Most of my flying is out of HPN (Westchester Flying Club), and some out of CDW (Essex County, NJ).  Are you at OXC, let me know if you want to show off your plane?

Active poster @201er lists NYC as home and keeps his 201 @ LDJ - Linden NJ.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Manual gear IS BETTER because it is simple.  Not failsafe, but simple.

[mooniac15u]

If simplicity is your lone criterion then that would drive your personal preference.  My manual gear Mooney had a lower gear speed than my current Mooney.  That was not better.  I found that dealing with the manual gear extension during an instrument approach represented more of a distraction including more physical movement that could lead to spatial disorientation.  That was not better.  We have seen some cases of manual gear Mooneys experiencing gear collapses.  I’m not sure why or whether that is an actual trend but if I still owned my M20D I would be very concerned about what happened with N6XM.  Was there a final determination on what happened with that?

[Godfather]

I think the manual gear shines with old planes that sit a lot. If I had to choose between two 50 year old planes that have only 3k hours I'd prefer the mechanical operated unit. If the two planes were 20 years old with the same number of hours I'd go for the electric unit every time. 

[MBDiagMan]

Looks as if this thread has the potential for turning into a landing gear war.  They made these aircraft with both types of gear because there are pilots with both preferences.  My thinking is that you choose the one that YOU prefer and that is the only person you must please.  If you prefer an electric gear Mooney you are still a fellow Mooniac AFAIAC.

[Skates97]

12 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

I owned a manual gear M20D for 8 years. I'm just as happy with my electric gear M20J now. The manual gear has achieved something akin to cult status around here but it's really just a personal preference. 

Yes, a matter of personal preference but I suppose you could sign me up as a member of the manual gear cult...

1 hour ago, mooniac15u said:

If simplicity is your lone criterion then that would drive your personal preference.  My manual gear Mooney had a lower gear speed than my current Mooney.  That was not better.  I found that dealing with the manual gear extension during an instrument approach represented more of a distraction including more physical movement that could lead to spatial disorientation.  That was not better.  We have seen some cases of manual gear Mooneys experiencing gear collapses.  I’m not sure why or whether that is an actual trend but if I still owned my M20D I would be very concerned about what happened with N6XM.  Was there a final determination on what happened with that?

 

I wonder why exactly they have the lower speed. (I'm sure someone has posted the exact reason before but I'm being lazy on the search function). Is it because the gear can't handle the higher speed, or is it because if you try to extend the gear at a higher speed it has a much higher force moving the Johnson bar forward which could result in damage as it would slam into the retaining block? If you retracted at say 130mph instead of the published 120mph and could control the swing of the bar, would there be resultant damage to the gear due to the air speed? (Just the random thoughts running through my mind...)

[Hank]

I've always heard that the speed limiting factor in our landing gear are the doors . . . But my electric C is good for 120 mph.

[mooniac15u]

19 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

Yes, a matter of personal preference but I suppose you could sign me up as a member of the manual gear cult...

I wonder why exactly they have the lower speed. (I'm sure someone has posted the exact reason before but I'm being lazy on the search function). Is it because the gear can't handle the higher speed, or is it because if you try to extend the gear at a higher speed it has a much higher force moving the Johnson bar forward which could result in damage as it would slam into the retaining block? If you retracted at say 130mph instead of the published 120mph and could control the swing of the bar, would there be resultant damage to the gear due to the air speed? (Just the random thoughts running through my mind...)

There has been much discussion about the gear speeds on MS.  I don't believe there is a difference in gear speeds between the manual and electric gear for the same model.  It was really just an observation that manual gear is only available in models with lower gear speeds.  So, if manual gear is important enough to you then you are stuck with the lower speed.  If you are ok with electric gear you have some options.

[Hank]

Yep. The big difference is in Flap speed. My electric ones go down at 125 mph, while the hydraulic ones in Jbar birds are much lower.

[bonal]

15 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

I owned a manual gear M20D for 8 years. I'm just as happy with my electric gear M20J now. The manual gear has achieved something akin to cult status around here but it's really just a personal preference. 

Thats funny because I kinda thought Mooney's were sort of a cult status

[bonal]

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

Yep. The big difference is in Flap speed. My electric ones go down at 125 mph, while the hydraulic ones in Jbar birds are much lower.

The 100mph flap speed has never been a problem since I dont drop them until in the pattern.  There have been some occasions where I'm a bit impatient waiting to hit the 120mph gear speed though.  If the OP is looking short body I would not rule out a C as has been discussed many times here that the performance difference can be minimal in real world conditions having both increases your shopping options

[Mooneymite]

The Mooney gear system is very basic....particularly the older birds with fewer gear doors.  Both manual and electric have "issues" , but they are mostly trouble free and mostly a personal preference.  Mechanically, my electric gear has been "no problem" for almost 20 years.  HOWEVER....my shoulder bursa have not held up nearly so well over that 20 years.  At this stage in my aging process, I'm thankful for that electric gear.  

[andymccann]

Wow, MS is truly fertile ground.  Thanks to everyone for all the great information.  Of course, feel free to let me know if you see any aircraft that may become available.  Also, any favorite Mooney-centric books out there?