Pressurized Business Aircraft Pro Formas

[Seth]

I am not a fan at recreating the wheel, but I do it all the time.  

I have an opportunity through three similar shared firms to purchase a business aircraft for use around the Mid-Atlantic region.  

Need:  Two individuals currently drive to Virginia beach from the Maryland suburbs around Washington DC on a weekly basis.  Down one day (four hour drive each way) and either back the next or late that night.  There are also monthly drives to Richmond, VA, Lancaster, PA, Philadelphia, PA, NJ, and also trips via train to NYC.  In the future, there will also be trips to Peoria, IL, Charleston, SC, Doylestown, PA, and Pittsburgh, PA.  There may also be a few longer distance flights during the year, FL, Michigan, and TX.  However, the longer flights we'll have no issue with a fuel stop if needed. 

Minimum seats 6.  More may be preferred.  Pressurization is required.

I have flown some of these partners only one at a time each thus far on my Mooney for no compensation whatsoever and they all agree now it's time to have a personal time machine.  One partner if he wants to dive in wants to go big - King Air 200/250 or King Air 300/350.  Cabin Class and pressurization are required.

There is the perfect airplane to test the waters with as a first business owned airplane in a Cessna 414 RAM VII, completely rebuilt and modernized over the last seven years owned and operated professionally locally with a pilot I know well based at my airport.  It's a turnkey operation with a pilot until I can get trained up as the backup.  The buy in is less than any other alternative.  This is the only legacy piston twin I'm considering - all others are single engine turbine or turbine twin King Airs.  If they don't want air travel after a while, or even if they decide to go big, the loss of selling the 414 at a loss would be minimal compared to a larger aircraft.  The costs also increase with each more capable air frame.

I'm putting together a comparison spreadsheet as well as deep pro forma on the 414.

Here are the aircraft I'm looking at - all used (though maybe new for tax purposes in the future, but for now used):

414 RAM VII - about $575-$650 per hour all in.  Not 414A, but a 1976 414 RAM VII. 

PA-46 Meridian

TBM 850

PC-12

King Air 200/250

King Air 300/350

Please shoot me a PM if you have a pro-forma or other real world operating numbers on these aircraft.  I'm also contacting NBAA for info tomorrow morning.

I'd also like any real world stories and real world info anyone has anything to share.

I want to help my partners make a good decision.  I'd love a King Air 350, but I personally believe the rebuilt thus reliable and dispatch ready 414 is the best option today.  In time a step up to a turbine seems inevitable.

The cabin will make the difference in my opinion.

The 414 is larger on the inside than the Meridian.  

The PC-12 and King are are larger than the 414.

How does the TBM staick up to the 414 cabin?  I know the TBM is larger than the Meridian on the inside.

I plan to keep my Mooney Missile - the other airplane would be in addition.

Thanks!

-Seth

 

[carusoam]

I look at from an engine viewpoint as well...

1) Turbine single would be my preferred route. Very similar to what you have, operation, bigger and faster...

2) Twin. Very much what your partners may be expecting...

3) Yooper Tom has done a great job of showing what a personal Turbine is capable of...

4) one of our NJMP MSers in Western PA went Presidential, and got a pair of IO550s with that.

The challenge with turbine and twin six seaters, the economics of personal travel start getting away from you and keeping the Mooney still makes sense.

Hopefully the business plan increases the personal wealth level to make a Turbine six seater a winner... start training!

Best regards and all the best!

-a-

[KLRDMD]

If you can afford the buy-in, TBM or PC-12 are the only reasonable options.

[aviatoreb]

PC12 seems like the best mission fit from your description, other than the non-pilot bias towards two engine which then tips the hat towards king air.

[carusoam]

Ken, you are a shining star at this!

 

Seth, what is the budget looking like for acquisition?

TBM 700s Are starting in the 700AMU range and quickly double that number... Closest to Mooney heritage.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?manu=SOCATA&mdltxt=TBM+700

TBM 850s are close to 2kAMUs...

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?manu=SOCATA&mdltxt=TBM+850

 

PC12 are in the widest range 500AMU to 3.5kAMU

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/8/turboprop-aircraft?Manu=PILATUS&MDLGrp=PC-12

 

B55 Colemill IO550s, check size of the rear seats... Easy acquisition prices compared to the turbines...

http://www.markheggaircraft.com/1981-colemill-president-ii-b55-baron-specs.html

B58P P is for pressurized...

 

C414 Ram VII Low capital requirement for entry... 150AMU...

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/9/piston-twin-aircraft?Manu=CESSNA&MDLGrp=414

C421C, selected by the MSer who knows Airframe and engine maintenance!

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/9/piston-twin-aircraft?ForcedDeskTop=True&manu=CESSNA&MDLGrp=421

P46T, Turbine, less than 1kAMU.

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?manu=PIPER&mdltxt=MERIDIAN

 

Just trying to help out...

Nothing beats the Mooney for speed and efficiency, stil...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited March 20, 2017 by carusoam

[Guest]

Why not a Cessna 421C model? It offers more performance in all aspects, a quieter cabin, simpler landing gear, a simpler fuel system and a safer exhaust system than a 414 all in the same cabin.  I've taken care of a pair of them for more than 15 years with no major difficulties or engine shut downs. People are down on the GTSIO 520 series engine but as with all engines careful pilotage and careful maintenance are the keys to success.

Clarence

[Jerry 5TJ]

I operated a P46T for 4 years.  Our flights tended to be much longer than yours, and with 2 people most of the time.   I doubt you can really put six guys into many P46T --  that's 1100 to 1200 pounds of American Folks -- and carry enough fuel for a real trip.   Ours had a useful load of 1335 pounds and it was light - and it will carry 1000 pounds of fuel.  You want to arrive with at least 200 pounds of fuel left, more in serious IMC. 

Early TBM models are also light on useful load, tho better than the P46T series.    A 700A model will generally have around 2200 pounds  UL -- but its 292 gallon tanks can take up 1927 of that.  Six guys and 800 pounds of fuel will be OK for a 1 hour flight.   I want at least 400 pounds of fuel at arrival in IMC in a TBM.

For six passengers the PC12 is probably the best single engine turbine choice, as others have opined. Room and useful load to spare.  Hangars get expensive and harder to find with its 50+ wingspan, though. 

Another point -- most of your proposed flights are around the mid-Atlantic region.  Between about Richmond and up well to the north of NYC you won't get much above 12,000' assigned from ATC, often lower than that.  That does not favor turbine operation.  As you get away from this corridor you'll get the altitudes you request - we went to FL260 or 270 on nearly every flight.

 

[KSMooniac]

Beechtalk would likely be a better forum for this question as there are many owners/operators of your candidate aircraft over there. Many have had similar debates too in choosing the right plane for such a mission.

Jerry's comments sound spot-on to me. I have no experience in this arena, though, but have a read a lot over the last 10 years while dreaming.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

[exM20K]

I spent the weekend at the APS seminar in Ada, OK (more on that in another post, perhaps) with a very experienced insurance agent who I've known for years.  We were talking about cabin class, pressurized twins, and he told me that it would be difficult and expensive to get me (5000+TT, CMEL, IR, 250 multi) insured in a 340, 414, or 421.  He says the underwriters currently hate them. PA46? no problem.  PA46T? no problem. TBM? No problem.  I'd not heard this before but have no reason to disbelieve him.

 

The SETP's along with various FSDO's requiring 135 operators to adhere to Cessna's maintenance program, have really destroyed the cabin class pressurized twin market.  There are bargains out there, but these planes are difficult to sell, so you may have to be patient if you decide it's not for you.  The economics of a Meridian, TBM, or PC12 are simply better, and if your business can take the 179 expensing allowance, the high capital cost will dramatically help your cash flows.

In your position, if I couldn't make the SETP pencil, I'd get a PA46. 

 

 

 

-de

 

[EricJ]

One small tick in the Meridian box is that the gross weight is <6k lbs, so somebody flying on the new BasicMed rules could still fly it.   I think all of the others mentioned are over 6k.

 

[carusoam]

 

Summary of the other things... some of the things I would not have thought of have come out here...

- Insurance prices and coverage.

- training and hours required.

- accepted flight plan altitudes for your flights. It would be economically bad to be stuck down low in a Turbine...

- definitely check in with other airframe and engine user groups.

 

the collected knowledge around here is spectacular.  Go MS!  

Best regards,

-a-

[Garryowen]

First mooneyspace post. Thought I would jump in on this since I do this for a living, albeit with helicopters.  

The first thing I always ask is how much do you plan to fly? There are a few broad numbers used when trying to determine if owning is even a good idea for business use as you describe. I like to use 75 hrs per year as a bench mark.  Anything less than 75 and you are better off chartering (pick any aircraft/company).  75-200 hours/yr  and you start to look at a fractional or membership model of ownership. Think NetJets or WheelsUp. Anything north of 200 hours per year and ownership begins to look like a realistic option.

Before doing anything, I would test out a few of your trips via a local charter company to get an idea of what aircraft combo works best for you and your partners. You can't go wrong with a Pilatus or TBM on the short hops you are talking about. Sometimes the flying part is better left up to someone else when it is being done for a business outside of your own so don't be surprised if ownership isn't right for you guys after all.

This is where your own pilot back ground and an accountant can help out. NBAA is a great resource and if you haven't found it already, their Operating and Leasing Guide is a great place to start. Part 91 aircraft working for multiple firms gets a little tricky and articles on the NBAA website should help clear up any definition and regulatory issues. The accountant or CFO will let you know what makes the most sense on the finance side. At the end of the day the aircraft is just a tool designed to generate revenue for your firm/s.

Jeff

[carusoam]

Welcome out in the open posting arena, Jeff.

Are you a NJ native or transplant?

Best regards,

-a-

[Garryowen]

Just now, carusoam said:

Are you a NJ native or transplant?

I'm actually from and live in Lancaster, PA (Lititz to be exact) and fly out of TTN. I have family in the Manasquan area so I spend a lot of time in Jersey. I fly/manage a couple of corporate helicopters for a small company here in the Northeast and work 'part-time' flying for the army guard in PA.

[AndyFromCB]

Whatever you do, do not get the prior generation glass aircraft. The avionics bills will eat you alive. Honeywell/Bendix gear is pretty much "unsupported" by the factory at this point. They really have no idea what they are doing as all the people that ever worked on them are long gone. The KFC325 is a fine autopilot, when it works, but between the CRT screens, symbol generators, various interface boxes, something is always broken. All "fixes" start at around $15K and go up from there and almost never fix anything for long. So even the G600 is not a good solution as you are stuck with the old autopilot. So I would stay away from older PC12s and TBMs.

With KA, you get Rockwell/Collins gear. Equally expensive, but at least considerably more reliable. CASP at $30K a year is a bargain for ProLine21 aircraft. Don't forget that the retail price for the entire  ProLine21 system is somewhere along $1.5million and you will be charged accordingly for parts and service.

Basically with all the above aircraft, other than the PA46, you're out between $120K and $180K annually before any fuel bills.

[Garryowen]

15 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

Basically with all the above aircraft, other than the PA46, you're out between $120K and $180K annually before any fuel bills.

Great point Andy!!  $180K worth of fixed annual costs can give you a pretty healthy charter budget.

[peevee]

shopping for airplanes with other people's money? HOW FUN!

[Seth]

3 hours ago, Garryowen said:

Great point Andy!!  $180K worth of fixed annual costs can give you a pretty healthy charter budget.

That's why the Rebuilt/fixed up and flying for the last 7 years Cessna 414 may be the best option before in a few years stepping up.

-Seth

[Seth]

I know the Meridian cabin probably will not work.  The 414 cabin is fine.  I know the TBM cabin is right in between.

Does anyone have any experience with a TBM?

-Seth

[kpaul]

I have flown both King Air 200s and PC-12s.

The PC-12 is the way I would go between those two, I have a couple thousand hours in the PC-12 over terrain/territory, including ocean crossings, that losing an engine is not optimal, however the reliability rate on the PT-6 is exceptionally high.  Very efficient, and nice to fly, comfortable for the pilot(s) and passengers.  Huge cargo/baggage door plus separate cabin entrance.  No spar to trip over when moving within the cabin.

[PaulM]

Seth,

  Have you thought about a Duke?...   Dave's personal one is on his list:

http://www.air-mods.com/forsale/N840JB

 

[Browncbr1]

my grand father had a 421 and my uncle still has his 401.   The 421 was way more expensive because of the geared drive and more expensive engines and much lower TBO and a few other things.  The 401 is more economical for nearly similar performance and cabin.   The kicker is you have to find one that has the spar AD addressed or the airframe will time out.  There is a very nice 401A on tradeaplane for $99k with low time engines, gps, GEMs, Stec AP, EX500, and most importantly; the spar AD has been done.  If I wanted a cabin class twin and could afford it, I would be all over this one!!

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Multi+Engine+Piston&make=CESSNA&model=401A&listing_id=2240852&s-type=aircraft

[LANCECASPER]

I was in a partnership on a Meridian when they first came out (ours was a 2002 with the Gross Weight Increase). Great airplane, but short on range - less range than the Mirage we had before. Piper has solved that with their newest M600, but high dollar. If someone spends the money to get an STC add fuel for an extra hour range, the prices on used Meridians would come up. With full fuel it would probably be a 2-4 person airplane.

[Zwaustin]

28 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

my grand father had a 421 and my uncle still has his 401.   The 421 was way more expensive because of the geared drive and more expensive engines and much lower TBO and a few other things.  The 401 is more economical for nearly similar performance and cabin.   The kicker is you have to find one that has the spar AD addressed or the airframe will time out.  There is a very nice 401A on tradeaplane for $99k with low time engines, gps, GEMs, Stec AP, EX500, and most importantly; the spar AD has been done.  If I wanted a cabin class twin and could afford it, I would be all over this one!!

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Multi+Engine+Piston&make=CESSNA&model=401A&listing_id=2240852&s-type=aircraft

401 is not pressurized thus not meeting the mission requirement and is nowhere in the same vicinity of the 421 with regard to specs, capability and refinement. Also, the original installed engine on a 401 is 1400TBO as was the 421's and the 421's flying today all have 1600TBO. 

[peevee]

1 hour ago, PaulM said:

Seth,

  Have you thought about a Duke?...   Dave's personal one is on his list:

http://www.air-mods.com/forsale/N840JB

 

makes me want to sell the mooney. Pressurized, anti ice, and a nice panel for 140k?