Purchase Advice 1976 M20F

[FLYINGRICEMAN]

New to the community and looking for some advice...

I recently looked at a 1976 M20F with less than 500 SMOH and 4600 TT and asking $59K. It has out dated avionics and does not have a GPS. Would this be an advisable purchase considering the ADS-B 2020 mandate and GPS install in the near future to bring it up to the 21st Century? The airframe and power plant are solid but I expect quite a bit of more money required to be invested since it will require wiring for GPS and ADS-B Antenna. 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. 

P.S. I do not have any Mooney experience so this would be stepping up from what I am accustomed to (C-172). 

[Marauder]

New to the community and looking for some advice...

I recently looked at a 1976 M20F with less than 500 SMOH and 4600 TT and asking $59K. It has out dated avionics and does not have a GPS. Would this be an advisable purchase considering the ADS-B 2020 mandate and GPS install in the near future to bring it up to the 21st Century? The airframe and power plant are solid but I expect quite a bit of more money required to be invested since it will require wiring for GPS and ADS-B Antenna. 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. 

P.S. I do not have any Mooney experience so this would be stepping up from what I am accustomed to (C-172). 

You will want to start with an evaluator and determine VRef for the plane. Here are a couple of sites that you toss the airplane details into and it will spit a value.

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/tool.html

http://naaa.trade-a-plane.com/evaluator/build_aircraft_identification.php

Keep in mind some of these factors are subjective (like quality of the paint and interior). Just don't too hung up on a pretty paint job and nice interior. You will want to make sure the engine and avionics are in shape as well. You could outspend the value of the plane on correcting engine and avionics problems.

I have a 75 F so if you have specific questions on the plane let me know. There are a number of 74 through 76 F owners on the site.

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[Ragsf15e]

It depends... The ADSB cost could be fairly low to get one of the UAT units that comes with a gps and uses your current transponder.  Still probably ~$2-3k minimum and that won't give you gps for navigating, only to meet adsb requirements.  If you installed an ifr gps and adsb transponder, you're talking $10k+ On the low end.

Does the airplane have autopilot and is that something you want?  That's even more $$ to add than adsb. 

Good luck! I really enjoy my 1968 F.

[Marauder]

As for ADS-B question, there several lower priced solutions to make you ADS-B without having a WAAS GPS in the panel. Not having a GPS, especially a WAAS version, is a show stopper for many buyers. Putting one in is expensive. Ask me how I know.


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[Ragsf15e]

Im with marauder... i did the waas gps and adsb transponder recently.  Super nice, but big hit to the wallet and i just did an upgrade to my 430 to make it waas.  The gtx345 was another $6k installed.  That being said, adsb in and out is very nice!

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, FLYINGRICEMAN said:

It has out dated avionics and does not have a GPS.

$59K is way too much. I consider WAAS GPS as minimum equipment for a Mooney. If you have that, adding ADSB isn't all that expensive. But getting the WAAS GPS installed is expensive. It's much cheaper to find a Mooney with WAAS already installed.

If you've got $59K to spend, I wouldn't be looking at Mooney's that don't have a WAAS GPS, HSI, and 3-axis coupled autopilot.  You can find that for your $59K and you're gonna want it.

[TTaylor]

My 75F was similar hours and avionics but did have a 89b gps.  I paid about $40K in 2012.   If it does not have a gps or fuctional autopilot it is likely worth around $45K maximum.   

The big question is what is your mission?   I fly VFR and enjoy hand flying the plane for the 50 or so hours I put on each year.  I fly in the mountain west so IFR flying is not that helpful.  Most of our IFR weather is either ground fog or clouds with ice.  If you are located were you can fly IFR and wish to, then the cost to upgrade is likely much higher than the plane is worth.  In general you can get avionics at about 50 cents on the dollar if they are in the plane when you buy it rather than adding them later.  For IFR flying you will want a waas gps and autopilot with altitude hold to reduce the workload.

The 74-76 F's are nice planes to fly. They had the more modern panel layouts.  The 76 had the single rear window on at least some.  They are not too hard to upgrade in the long run and for the $ give you great performance.

Tim

[Guitarmaster]

Welcome to MS!  You will not find a better group of pilots and a more massive knowledge base than here!

The first question I have is, why a Mooney?  DOn't get me wrong, it's a great plane, but does it match your mission?  Deciding what you want/need an airplane for and being HONEST with yourself about it should drive the airframe purchase.  This is not easy since it is such an emotional thing.  All that said;

Like Maruader, I have a '75F.  In fact, ours are sister ships.  I've had mine almost three years and Maruader for ~24 years.  The "F" is a great variant.  I made a few... alright... many mistakes when I bought mine.  Here they are in no particular order:

The airframe is nothing more than a container for the engine and avionics.  Paint and interior are relatively minor things.  Get a pre-buy on the airplane AND avionics!!  It never crossed my mind to Pre-buy avionics.  Had I done that, I would have saved $$$$.  Between the two, plan on about $3000.

Have a good MSC do the pre-buy.  Any mechanic can check the engine and logs, but a MSC will know EXACTLY where to look for problems.

ADS-b is $5000 installed. Period.  As of now (or very soon), buying a plane without it is like buying a car without an alternator. 

WAAS GPS would not be a deal-killer, but I would price that into the purchase. $10000.

The Mooney is a good plane for smashing bugs, but where it really shines is long cross countries!  I didn't think I would care about an autopilot.... WRONG!  I quickly learned the value of even a rudimentary autopilot!  Plus I discovered I am a lazy airline pilot. Now I have an autopilot.  Paid for by me   The Mooney is a fast, sensitive airplane and, although stable, can be work in hard IFR.  

From your description, it sounds like that plane WAY overpriced.  However; if the owner is willing to negotiate... that may be a different story.  I paid $47000 for mine three years ago.  Had I done an avionics pre-buy, I would have offered 38K

Between Marauder and I, we should be able to answer just about any later "F" question.  


 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Guitarmaster

[Vance Harral]

If it helps any, here are some specs on our 1976 M20F, which does have a Garmin GTN 650, but no ADSB solution yet: http://www.harral.net/aviation/N7028.html

Every year we meet as a partnership, look at comps, and decide what we think the airplane would sell for.  The airplane is not for sale, but we do this to establish a value for insurance, as well as a value to use should one of the partners decide to exit the partnership.  We had our annual valuation meeting just a couple of weeks ago, and the number we came up with was $55K.  The airplane has "average" paint and interior, and a runout engine for valuation purposes (over 1800 hours SMOH).

[FLYINGRICEMAN]

I greatly appreciate all of the advice. I will be doing quite a bit of research on the aircraft as well as comparing it to others. I won't purchase anything without having an unbiased pre-buy inspection thats for sure. It looks like the aircraft has been on the market for a while and most likely would have sold already if equipped with modern avionics. I'm sure I will be tapping into everyones knowledge here to assist in making an informed decision. 

 

What are your thoughts on a J-model opposed to the pre-J models? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to look out for?

[Vance Harral]

2 minutes ago, FLYINGRICEMAN said:

What are your thoughts on a J-model opposed to the pre-J models? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to look out for?

Lots of variation depending on year model.  I think it's most useful to compare the first year of the J (1977) to the last year model of the F (1976).  The cabin, interior, and instrumentation between these two models are identical, right down to the quadrant throttle.  In fact, some of the minor hardware on our 1976 F is actually represented only in the J parts manual (e.g. the door latch mechanism).  But the J has an impressive set of airframe drag reductions vs. the F: more sloped windshield, improved cowl design, and various scoop/seal changes most people agree improve looks as well as performance.  Combined with a minor change in the engine/prop combination, the J cruises 10-15 knots faster than a similarly loaded F, and commands a commensurate price premium.  It's about 1 AMU per knot of cruise speed, same as most speed mods. :-)

The further apart the year models get, the more variation you have in engine, gear and flap systems, cabin size, etc.; as well as cost.  I'm not sure it's useful to generically compare "J-model vs. pre-J model".  Too much variety for a short discussion.

[Drumstick]

15 hours ago, FLYINGRICEMAN said:

New to the community and looking for some advice...

I recently looked at a 1976 M20F with less than 500 SMOH and 4600 TT and asking $59K. It has out dated avionics and does not have a GPS. Would this be an advisable purchase considering the ADS-B 2020 mandate and GPS install in the near future to bring it up to the 21st Century? The airframe and power plant are solid but I expect quite a bit of more money required to be invested since it will require wiring for GPS and ADS-B Antenna. 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. 

P.S. I do not have any Mooney experience so this would be stepping up from what I am accustomed to (C-172). 

What I have learned in my search - the items that impact Vref value the most are Logbooks, Damage history, Total Time, TSMOH and avionics.  The avionics give zero value.  Add $11 for every hour under .5*TBO.  So in this case you would add about $5500 to the base Vref value.  Paint and interior rated at 7 is zero addition or deduction - add or subtract as usual.  Avionics credit is about .25-.5 the installed cost of the units depending on how new they are.  I think the current addition is $5000 to base value for a Garmin 530W.  It would cost at least $10000 to get one used and installed.

Base price for a 76F according to Vref is surprisingly $53,000.  Adding the low time and assuming 7/7 int and exterior it is $58.5 according to the formula the AOPA lenders will use. 

Now the question is WHEN were those 500 hours put on?  If the overhaul was 15-20 years ago...its very risky.  If it flew 500 hours in the last 5 years...giddy up!

An F is a good airplane but it will always be an F and perform about as well as the earlier Fs that may have a base price of 40K.  It will never be a J.  Base price of a 77 J is $71K.

Now the question is - what is the aircraft worth to you?  The airplane that I am in the process of buying only had a Vref of $38K but I'm going to pay more for it because I know the history of the plane, owner, type of flying that was done on it etc.  For an airplane, its a very low risk purchase and it meets my mission requirements (IFR in congested airspace).  I have found much better deals but they all came with airplanes that had some "neglect" in their history.

I would say this - if this airplane has a solid maintenance history, all flying on this motor in the last 5-10 years, responsible owner and meets YOUR current requirements and YOU are willing to invest in avionics then its probably safe that you will not end up "under water" as far as the bank is concerned.  BUT - if you could find the same airplane with the avionics already installed it would be equal to about 1/4 the price of getting it done after the fact.

Vref/BlueBook does not do justice to the current price of installed avionics.  It will be much cheaper in the long run to find the airplane you want with the avionics installed.

STEC 30 is only a 4-5K valuation increase but will cost you probably $20K to get installed in todays market.

Good luck - finding the right plane is hard!

Further example - Using Vance's airplane: 55K-11K (motor)+$5000 (GPS) = $48K but does not account for inter/ext condition, total time or other avionics/mods. 

Edited to add: Vref is a "retail value" price or what a dealer could get away with listing an aircraft for...not necessarily a selling price. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Drumstick

[Yetti]

based on the description. 15 to 25K too much money

[Browncbr1]

When I was looking at F models, I placed more value on the 67 vintage..., others prefer the later years.   It's tough to have a real idea of what it's worth without seeing it.     But, your primary concern should be with making sure you buy a plane that is clean without corrosion.  All else can be upgraded or fixed.   It would be a pity to buy a plane because of the nice avionics and autopilot and new paint only to find out that the spar is corroded after someone notices some cracking paint in the wheel well during an annual 2 years later.  ....   It has happened.  

[FLYINGRICEMAN]

23 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

When I was looking at F models, I placed more value on the 67 vintage..., others prefer the later years.   It's tough to have a real idea of what it's worth without seeing it.     But, your primary concern should be with making sure you buy a plane that is clean without corrosion.  All else can be upgraded or fixed.   It would be a pity to buy a plane because of the nice avionics and autopilot and new paint only to find out that the spar is corroded after someone notices some cracking paint in the wheel well during an annual 2 years later.  ....   It has happened.  

Great point. I have had the opportunity to look over the airplane and there isn't anything glaring in the surface. The handle in the baggage door was a little bit loose but if i decide to move forward with this airplane or any other for that matter I would not feel comfortable without having a knowledgeable M20F guru check things over. 

One things for sure...this will be a great learning experience either way we decide to go.