Philosophical ADS-B Question

[Marauder]

With Aspen's announcement that the RTX-345 is now capable of interfacing with the Aspen PFD/MFD for FIS-B and TIS-B, I am revisiting my decision of going with the L3 9000+ (unit with active traffic).

I would like to hear other's views on the future of ADS-B compliance. From my understanding, ADS-B compliance will be required if you plan on flying above 10,000' and if you are in any of the transponder required classes (Class B, C. etc.) or the Mode C rings. In theory then, if you don't fly above 10,000', are outside of Mode C rings, don't fly into Class B or C airspace, you don't need an ADS-B solution. It is possible that there will be Mode C only planes flying around as well those who don't have any transponder.

What I don't know is if after 2020, how many of these planes will be flying around without ADS-B solutions? And even if there are, will the ADS-B TIS-B capture them? I know from now until 2020 it would make sense to have active traffic, but will it make sense after 2020?

My wallet is at your disposal...

[gsengle]

Without active traffic you'll be relying on uplink for non ADSB (mode c) traffic. To my mind where this matters is in the traffic pattern. You're where most mid airs occur and are often below the radar that would be required to detect and uplink to you those transponder targets. That's assuming you're even receiving ADSB in at 1000agl.

So I personally think active traffic fills some important gaps, and I've installed the 9000+ myself... Love it.


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[Cruiser]

To re-enforce Greg's point.

Aircraft without ADS-B OUT and also not in radar coverage will not show up in ADS-B IN traffic displays.

When does this condition most like occur? When you/they are in the traffic pattern at an uncontrolled airport below radar coverage and below ADS-B reception.  

[wishboneash]

If ADS-B out become widespread with only a few non-compliers it may not be too risky. I would be actively looking outside when in and around the traffic pattern whether the airfield is uncontrolled or not. Active traffic would be nice, but with much higher compliance, it may not be necessary IMHO. The bigger risk I have seen in my own flying is converging traffic when a few miles out when you are much higher.

[gsengle]

I have active traffic and it's most valuable when approaching an airport and in the pattern....

There will be more than a few non compliers. Especially in certain areas of the country.

Active traffic aside the L3 Lynx box is excellent and has many nice features.


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[glafaille]

Unless the price of ADS-B equipment and the cost to install comes down by 1/2, I foresee widespread non-compliance in the GA community.  Particularly in less congested areas.

Personally, I do not fly in Class B airspace, and see no problem with utilizing airports outside of Class B airspace, and driving to where I need to go.  Furthermore, I believe permission will be easy to obtain to operate in Class C aircspace without ADS-B, so maybe no issue there, and I rarely fly above 10,000 ft.  

Therefore, in my case, ADS-B compliance provides little additional capability to my airplane, but does add significant potential for missed flights.  If ADS-B is installed it MUST be on and operational at all times the aircraft is operated regardless of airspace or mode of operation.  ADS-B out becomes a no-go item and a potential for missed flights.

Long tunnel, no cheese.

[gsengle]

Note it's not just in the class B, it's the entire 30nm mode C veil...


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[glafaille]

So one could land outside the Mode C ring and drive into town.  Spending between 5 AMU and 10 AMU to avoid the drive may not make sense.  It all depends your particular needs and finances.

If you operate in the Northeast or in Southern California you may have little choice, compliance is likely required to get any utility out of your aircraft.  However, those operating in less populated areas may be able to avoid ADS-B airspace and still realize a high degree of utility with their aircraft.

The unintended consequences of ADS-B are interesting to consider.  For instance, will traffic at airports just outside of Class B airspace see an increase in traffic after 2020?  Will smaller airports now under Class B airspace see a reduction in traffic after 2020?  Or even this question I saw on another board; Why even have a transponder in your aircraft after 2020?

 

[gsengle]

Just saying, hypothetically, say for NYC, that means a 2 hour drive....


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[StevenL757]

Echoing Greg and Tom...I'd be cautious jumping at the latest thing.  Keep your overall post-upgrade capabilities and mission profile regarding ADS-B in sight before you decide to spend money.  Don't be penny-wise and pound-foolish...cheaper isn't always better.  The NGT-9000+ is about the best thing going out there right now, combining ADS-B In and Out, Mode S-ES, and active traffic.  Sure you'll get a few extra antennas, but your capabilities will far outweigh the sting you'll feel spending a little extra.

[bonal]

And I expect the Pt23 re write is still going to require the ADSB out to be certified compliant so will cost a lot for less capablity than a non certified that has more features at less than 1/4 the cost. I Will likely upgrade to be compliant but will be a hold out hoping that there will be better units that all you early birds will want to upgrade and then I can help you recover some of your initial investment and you can help me by selling me a used one at a reasonable price. 

[carusoam]

Remember when they put in the mode C veil.  Planes didn't have mode C...

The discussions seem to be pretty parallel, just shifted a couple decades in time.

NJ is set between Philly and NYC Class Bravo airspace...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Just to provide closure on this thread. After picking the brains of a number of people on what "NexGen" will mean, I decided to go the route of the N9000+. From everything I learned, there will still be a number of owners who will not need or want to upgrade to ADS-B. Even on the east coast. The mode C veils and the Washington 60 DME ring can be avoided. I suspect the corridor between Philly and Washington will contain non-ADS-B planes. As long as I can pick up the ADS-B antenna I will be fine. Another factor that is weighed into my decision is that we still have 3 more years before the mandate comes into effect.

If you folks want help selling the active traffic solution to your significant other, just give them an iPad running your favorite ADS-B in solution and see how many planes are missed today. My wife immediately signed up when I told her what active traffic can do now.

[bonal]

If it's that important why not find an easier way allow non certified gear to get an approval. Right now if I'm mode C and want to enter a controlled AS and my mode C is non opp or incorrect I'm not going to be permitted to enter.  My biggest pet peeve is so much technology is out there that in many cases is superior to the certified gear and it can't be of benefit to me because I'm certified. The old expression if it can save just one life its worth it at some point when is freedom less important. Have there been so many mid air collisions that this is going to make any difference. I know you guys that are running in traffic are always saying how much is out there that you never see. But then what if you put so much reliance on the little dots on the screen that you run right into an airplane that for some unknown reason did not have a little dot on your screen.

[Piloto]

Active traffic will never be obsolete. In TCAS II active interrogation/communication between airliners is a must to coordinate proper evasive action. ADS-B is not planned to be involved in these exchanges. Active systems are immune to malicious interference or GPS dependence. Mode A/C has the longest range for ATC radars with 100% of traffic certainty even above Mode S (need traffic address to interrogate in Mode S).

José

[gsxrpilot]

As I see it, our Mooney's are made for going places. If all I'm doing is pattern work and the occasional $100 hamburger, I've got the wrong airplane. So if I'm going to use the Mooney the way it was meant to be used, it should have a solid IFR panel, a good autopilot, WAAS GPS, and ADSB. I want to be able to cross the country and go from A to B without any restrictions on either the A or the B.

Trying to do this without, seems like having a great road trip car, but being prohibited from driving it into a city of any size, or even using the freeway system. You could still do it, take the bus out to the outer suburbs to pick up the car and then take back roads all the way to your destination where you'll again park out in outskirts somewhere and take Uber into the city. Doable, but not efficient or fun.

Just my $0.02 (I wonder if this is what happens to so many planes we see that don't fly. Like the F just posted for sale with 80 hours since 2012 and only 800 hours in the last 26 years.)