Mooney Capabilities

[silent101]

Hello all,

Im back thinking about getting into flying again after selling my 67' F model around two years ago. Just want to get some advice on what model I should be looking at or even if the type of capabilities i seek are realistic for a G/A aircraft in the 150 to 200 AMU range.

 

First off the mission. 

50% the time its me (170IB's) and the wife (120IB's) traveling 600mile trips up and down the east coast.  I fly out of Michigan so getting through that ice layer is pretty much a requirement half of the year. Im not set on a turbo aricraft but a good amount of trips are visiting family/friends in Colorado.  I need to be able to get into the cool smooth air and avoid the build ups(head winds are also a serious concern). The other 50% of the time we are flying with another couple with similar weight. 

Truth be told, i sold my F model because it ended up being an expensive toy that was good for flight training and $100 burgers. I had to scrub over half of the planed trips because of weather (ice). Some of the trips i was able to complete i can remember being absolutely exhausted after fighting turbulence/head winds and build ups the entire 1000 nm trip. Trips like this seamed to be the norm going East to West.

Does a aircraft in the Mooney fleet meet my mission while haveing the capability to comfortably complete my mission while maintaining say a 90% or better dispatch rate?

Thanks for any input,

Rob

[Bravoman]

Sounds like you need a de iced Acclaim, Bravo or maybe an Ovation. My Bravo isn't TKS but you sure do get used to the ability to get high above wx and into the cool smooth air where there isn't a lot of other traffic. I live in the SE so ice is a bit less of a concern but even if I had TKS I don't think I'd intentionally enter icing conditions. I had never owned or even flown a turbocharged aircraft before I got the Mooney and I heard the usual about the purported downside of turbocharged power plants but It really isn't a big deal to manage properly. 

[blacknchrome]

A FIKI/TKS Bravo will do exactly what you want.  That's what I was looking for when I moved up from the last airplane and found it.  The Bravo has been extremely dependable and very capable.  It'll do 1000nm non-stop if you want, through an icing layer legally, and at a great speed comfortably.  It's a tough airplane to beat I think in a lot of areas.

 

 

[DonMuncy]

Do any of us have a 90% dispatch rate. Maybe if we are only planning 100$ hamburger runs a day or so in advance. But if you plan many flights a few weeks in advance, more than 400 nms, you better be a good instrument pilot with a ice capability.

[carusoam]

Rob,

Up and down the east coast is perfect for the NA IO550.

The 310HP version can climb quickly and use short runways.

All four seats are first class!

The O is just like an M20F on steroids.  

You get to choose.  Would you like A/C and FIKI with that?

Serious question.... what changed?  The F had to go, is this going to make that much of a difference for the extra AMUs that it will cost?

Really nice Fs and really nice Os.  One is under 100AMU, the other is just over 200AMU.  

If you decide to go turbocharged.  Ks vs. Bravos have the same type of comparisons.

If the 150AMU number is really a limit.  Modern updated Js vs 252(top end of the Ks)

Have some fun take a look at what is available at AAA...

http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

No plane is perfect for ice or thunderstorms...

The best defense would be to have FIKI, A few color screens for nav, weather, and traffic.  If you have some dough after that, TCs and TNs with built in O2 are on the nice to have list.

Now what are you thinking?

I wish I could have a job matching Mooneys to buyers.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Piloto]

If you are looking for 90% dispatch rate your only option is an Ovation. No sense on having a turbo that cannot fly when you need it. The Ovation will easily climb to FL180 to put you above most weather. TKS is nice to have but not a most. It takes out about 100 pounds of payload and is only good for about three hours.

José

[ArtVandelay]

If you are looking for 90% dispatch rate your only option is an Ovation. No sense on having a turbo that cannot fly when you need it. The Ovation will easily climb to FL180 to put you above most weather. TKS is nice to have but not a most. It takes out about 100 pounds of payload and is only good for about three hours.
José

It's not about getting to altitude, it's about getting thru icing layer quickly, whats the climb rate of an O at 16000? I think FIKI is a must.

[StevenL757]

Rob

Echoing others, a FiKi Ovation is what I'd be concentrating on in the price range and mission you gave.  Longest range of anything in the fleet, and I find that I use my TKS system more than I realized.  With a 310 conversion, I note 300-400fpm climb rates in the 15k to 17k range, so not seeing where the added maintenance of a turbo on a Bravo would be necessary for you, given the mission.  When do you think you'd be looking to make the move?  (I'm not a sales guy)

Regards, Steve

[Tony Armour]

14 hours ago, Piloto said:

If you are looking for 90% dispatch rate your only option is an Ovation. No sense on having a turbo that cannot fly when you need it. The Ovation will easily climb to FL180 to put you above most weather. TKS is nice to have but not a most. It takes out about 100 pounds of payload and is only good for about three hours.

José

Really ? Eleven years of Bravo ownership and I have delayed 1 one day due to it being turbocharged. In fact, my dispatch rate is I guess 100% ? I don't recall ever having to cancel, I may leave a few hours early or a few hours late for thunderstorms. There have been several times that if not turbo I would have stayed on the ground though. Possible with an Ovation but it wouldn't have been fun (as in climbing to 20,000+ to top weather and  even then between huge build ups. So yea, when you speak of a Bravo I'm saying you don't have a clue ;-)

His mission, his location and TKS may be a must. In Georgia and my typical directions of flight it's always been a non issue. Now that I'm frequenting Baltimore it may become a hinderance. 

 

I LOVE the guys that have never owned a Bravo but yet talk about how bad the maintenance is "rolleyes" :-)

[gsengle]

You're a lucky man, this year alone I had a clogged injector and a non clearable fouled spark plug scrub flights (maintenance was closed for evening). That's before the two scrubs due to widespread low IFR and thunderstorms.


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[silent101]

Thanks for the replys guys. Typical for Michigan you do need that ability to punch through an iceing layer quickly at altitude although usually its only 3000 to around 5000msl. Even with a known ice system, i would not want to be in that environment for very long. I really like the 252 setups expecially with encore conversation to raise useful load. The shorter bodies dont bother me and fit my sub 200k price range much better. One option I have noticed is a 252 rocket. They can be had very reasonable, good UL, 2000 fpm and 220kts. Negatives seam to be fuel burn and maintenance. For my price range i would be worried about steping into a more run out lesser equipped bravo.

As far as time table that will be when i am confident i found the right aircraft.  The F mission was alot of flight training and getting used to GA flying.  It worked out great but it had pretty severe limitations on the cross country profile i flew.

[Piloto]

8 hours ago, Tony Armour said:

Really ? Eleven years of Bravo ownership and I have delayed 1 one day due to it being turbocharged. In fact, my dispatch rate is I guess 100% ? I don't recall ever having to cancel, I may leave a few hours early or a few hours late for thunderstorms. There have been several times that if not turbo I would have stayed on the ground though. Possible with an Ovation but it wouldn't have been fun (as in climbing to 20,000+ to top weather and  even then between huge build ups. So yea, when you speak of a Bravo I'm saying you don't have a clue ;-)

His mission, his location and TKS may be a must. In Georgia and my typical directions of flight it's always been a non issue. Now that I'm frequenting Baltimore it may become a hinderance. 

 

I LOVE the guys that have never owned a Bravo but yet talk about how bad the maintenance is "rolleyes" :-)

I just read the Mooney Bravo Owners Forum. A lot of good maintenance information about Bravos. But no specific forum for other models, wonder why. Never had single turbo problem on my M20J. If the weather top is to 20,000ft I just fly under the weather and save on gas due to climb or headwinds.

José 

[carusoam]

There was a Bravo pilot named John the lawyer.  He felt it would benefit the Bravo group to be able to focus on their specific issues.  He petitioned a few other Bravo owners and sent the request to Craig. The TIO540 has a few issues unlike other engines, the long bodies share the same airframe characteristics, the IO550 Is used in several platforms from the J to the eagle and TN'd Acclaim.

They can be separated out, but you end up reading a few different forum sections to get all the details.

Craig adds them as needed.

I read them all in the order they get posted... one of these days I won't be able to keep up...

Best regards,

-a-

[Shadrach]

On September 26, 2016 at 2:54 AM, teejayevans said:

It's not about getting to altitude, it's about getting thru icing layer quickly, whats the climb rate of an O at 16000? I think FIKI is a must.

Perhaps FIKI is in order, but do consider that at 16,000 feet, an Ovation 3 is making just 14hp less than our aircrafts' max take off power on a standard day. My guess is that an Ovation 3 will out climb some turbo aircraft at that altitude.

[gsengle]

That doesn't sound right but I don't have my POH handy. My O is pretty anemic by 16000.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

AFM recommends 120 KIAS minimum in icing conditions.  At that speed my Ovation 2 will climb about 200-300 FPM at 15,000.  (2500 rpm, 3000 pounds, ISA).  It will climb considerably faster at Vy.  

[gsengle]

Perhaps FIKI is in order, but do consider that at 16,000 feet, an Ovation 3 is making just 14hp less than our aircrafts' max take off power on a standard day. My guess is that an Ovation 3 will out climb some turbo aircraft at that altitude.

The way I read this is that at 16,000 you have at most 55% available which is way more than 14hp less, it's more like 140 less... I bet I am down to a couple hundred feet a min at that point. Ovations and other long bodies are heavier and need the HP

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[Shadrach]

44 minutes ago, gsengle said:

The way I read this is that at 16,000 you have at most 55% available which is way more than 14hp less, it's more like 140 less... I bet I am down to a couple hundred feet a min at that point. Ovations and other long bodies are heavier and need the HP

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RTFP! ;-) I was comparing the Ovation III at 16K to a J or F model at SL. The O III chart that I saw had settings for 60% or 186HP at 16K; which is just 14 less than a J, F or E on take off. When I said "our aircrafts" I was referring to Teejay's J and my F.

[gsengle]

I guess I didn't know what aircraft you fly and hence what "our aircraft" referred to... That said the Ovation is quite a bit heavier and is pretty anemic at 16!


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[ArtVandelay]

RTFP! ;-) I was comparing the Ovation III at 16K to a J or F model at SL. The O III chart that I saw had settings for 60% or 186HP at 16K; which is just 14 less than a J, F or E on take off. When I said "our aircrafts" I was referring to Teejay's J and my F.

I guess I'm confused too, I think this was in reference to your post about an O3 out climbing a turbo.

[KSMooniac]

A FIKI M20R would be my choice, although I'm not sure if you could put 2 couples, bags, and TKS fluid in an R and go very far...better check w&b and see if that will work. In fact, it will likely be difficult in any long body, especially with lots of options/equipment.

A Rocket might have good useful load, but w&b will be tricky with 4 adults as well, although the power will carry more than legally allowed. There are very few FIKI Rockets in existence as they would have had to start as a 252 and even then I'm not sure if the cert was maintained during the conversion.

An Encore or converted 252 might work as well with the lower fuel burn.

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[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I guess I'm confused too, I think this was in reference to your post about an O3 out climbing a turbo.

You were asking how an Ovation III climbed at 16k. I've never flown one but they have the highest power to weight ratio of any factory Mooney. At MGW we're talking 10.8lbs per horsepower vs a 2740lb F or J is 13.7lbs per horsepower. I was simply pointing out how much HP was still on tap through 16K.  I'm surprised to learn that the Ovation is a dog in the mid teens. I've had my F to DAs in excess of 18K. I would say that it starts to gets anemic (<400FPM) around 14K. 

[Robert C.]

5 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

A FIKI M20R would be my choice, although I'm not sure if you could put 2 couples, bags, and TKS fluid in an R and go very far...better check w&b and see if that will work. In fact, it will likely be difficult in any long body, especially with lots of options/equipment.

You beat me to it

• My O3 weighs 2500lbs (incl A/C, cover, extra oil, cleaning supplies, chocks, etc).
• Add 4 adults at 580lbs (in winter clothes, with boots, head sets, flight bag?) and you're at 3080. Coincidentally that means that if you want to land with 20 gal on board (my personal minimum) you'll be landing at the...
• Max landing weight which is 3200 lbs. So, if you add weekend bags for 4 adults you have a really interesting problem; you will be landing with less fuel on board than I'm prepared to land with.
• Max takeoff/MGW is 3368 lbs. So (at 580 lbs of payload) you have 168lbs of range, which is about 28 gal (on top of the 20 gal reserves) or appr. 2 hrs. In a straight line. Two hours is a nice trip but note that you really have to fly your 2 hrs to get the weight down. 60 lbs of luggage and you're down to 18 gal to burn which is a bit less than 1.5 hrs or 220nm.
• Let's say you take your friends on a half hour hamburger run. You'll take off with 27 gal, land with 20, and ask the incredulous line guy to add 7 gal into your 102 gal tanks before taking off for home.

All doable; but is it desirable?

I love my O3 (although I'd swap the A/C for FIKI in a heart beat) but we never invite couples to fly with us....now you know why

 

 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Robert C.
fixed typo in weight

[Jerry 5TJ]

5 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

A FIKI M20R would be my choice, although I'm not sure if you could put 2 couples, bags, and TKS fluid in an R and go very far...better check w&b and see if that will work

A FIKI Ovation was my choice, too; that's why I bought one. 

Balance is not too problematic (although FIKI Ovation aft CG is restricted to 49" compared to 51" for non-deiced versions).

Weight is an issue: 900 pounds useful load in mine, including a full TKS tank.  Great 2 person machine with all 89 gallons of 100LL aboard. 

Want to carry 4 USA standard big folks and all their bags with full tanks? I suggest a Pilatus. 

[Tony Armour]

16 hours ago, Piloto said:

I just read the Mooney Bravo Owners Forum. A lot of good maintenance information about Bravos. But no specific forum for other models, wonder why. Never had single turbo problem on my M20J. If the weather top is to 20,000ft I just fly under the weather and save on gas due to climb or headwinds.

José 

I had a J for seven years too. Great airplane.