Steep Turn Base to Final

[gsengle]

It's the tone. Not respectful regardless of your opinion.

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[PTK]

I also don't see any benefit in posting on this thread except for one question to the op. Please elaborate Mike if you would, exactly what is the point you are trying to make with this video? IOW how did your gadget benefit you in this approach and landing? Presumably its a means to an end for you and if so what was your end goal? Do you feel satisfied you achieved it?

[201er]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

I also don't see any benefit in posting on this thread except for one question to the op. Please elaborate Mike if you would, exactly what is the point you are trying to make with this video? IOW how did your gadget benefit you in this approach and landing? Presumably its a means to an end for you and if so what was your end goal? Do you feel satisfied you achieved it?

Read the title. This is about how a properly executed steep base to final turn can be a useful tool in the box of energy cutting approach tools at the pilot's disposal. Someone hit like on that old video and the steep base to final turn caught my attention. It's something I do on maybe one out of thirty flights and find it useful. So I just wanted to translate my thoughts and method into writing in case anyone is interested.

[201er]

2 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

If 201er wants to fly closer to the edge of the envelope, that is certainly his right.  Stunt pilots, test pilots, and risk takers do exactly this on a frequent basis and not all of them kill themselves, or others, but some do.

I actually don't think I fly all that much closer to the edge of the envelope. By referring to an angle of attack indicator and by flying based on an angle of attack minded approach, I am simply more aware of that envelope. I think pilots flying by airspeed are oblivious as to what their actual envelope is because they have no direct way of knowing or visualizing it.

Because of my awareness of my angle of attack and coordination during the intentional steep base to final turn, I am most likely operating much more toward the middle of a safe envelope than someone who is unaware and is just flying an arbitrary airspeed value.

Flying closer to actual Vx, Vy, or best glide AOA is not closer to the edge of envelope. In fact it is spot on. By flying a more precise AOA to achieve the most effective climb or approach, you are less likely to find yourself in a situation close to the envelope.

Any of us could fall for the step on the rudder trap under the right combination of circumstances, myself included. I think that I am less likely to because I am not shy about making steep bank turns down low. I am not afraid to use more bank which means I am less likely to inadvertently try to turn with more rudder. I am comfortable making steep turns because I have a high level of awareness of my angle of attack situation.

This isn't simply a gadget. It's a mind set and interpretation of the information surrounding me. The angle of attack indicator has enabled me to learn the airspeed, pitch attitude, wind noise, and other factors that can imply angle of attack for psrticular bank angles or weight configurations. Cover up my AOAi and ASI and I will revert to the other cues I learned while flying by reference to AOA. The difference is that I will use cues that were paired directly with an AOA while others would use cues to infer airspeed and airspeed to infer AOA. A more indirect and error prone mentality.

Edited September 5, 2016 by 201er

[cliffy]

There is an interesting youtube of Yeager getting a ride in an FA-18 and the AC points out the AOA to him and his response?

You have to listen carefully but he says- "now that's a stupid gage, if you don't know what the airplanes doing you shouldn't be flying it!"    I had coffee with him once years ago at Lacy's in KVNY, he was nice to talk with.

That aside, we had AOAs in the early 20 series Lears.

[Yetti]

Not airline smooth.  You can stay above 90 mph on base to final turn.  Add half flaps as needed depending on the wind.  Keep it under 0.8 mile final. And still make the runway if your engine quits.  Just turn earlier if the engine goes and you will have lots of energy to to deal with.  I would say you are adding risk that is not really needed. The higher the angle the more precision that is needed. Feel the ball, be the ball. 

Edited September 5, 2016 by Yetti

[PTK]

30 minutes ago, 201er said:

Read the title. This is about how a properly executed steep base to final turn can be a useful tool in the box of energy cutting approach tools at the pilot's disposal. Someone hit like on that old video and the steep base to final turn caught my attention. It's something I do on maybe one out of thirty flights and find it useful. So I just wanted to translate my thoughts and method into writing in case anyone is interested.

What is your definition of "energy cutting"? How successful were you in achieving and how do you measure it? Obviously your opinion is that that approach and landing demonstrates "energy cutting".  What do you base your opinion on?

[201er]

Just now, PTK said:

What is your definition of "energy cutting"? How successful were you in achieving and how do you measure it? Do you feel that approach and landing demonstrates "energy cutting"?

Just look at the VSI. Greater sink rate without significant increase in speed.

[PTK]

You overshot the base to final and wasted ~1300 feet of precious runway. Do you consider that successful "energy cutting?" (Hint: Many do a lot better than that without aoa gadgets.) I would've thought, especially with your gadget, you should expect to do a lot better than that also. Why didn't you?

You have gained nothing in return except a false sense of security leading to wreckless procedure at what is arguably a very critical phase of the flight. That should be of concern.

[cbarry]

From my observation point, your base to final turn (whether it's once every 30 times or not) appears as the classic "final overshoot" and the resulting crank it over to get back aligned.  We've all been there, but some have been in the same place but not lived to tell their story. 

[carusoam]

From what I see here, and in real life...

1) 201er demonstrates some pretty nice energy control.

2) on video, landing main wheels first, then lowering the nose, just passing the numbers on the ground.

3) in real life, I've flown with 201er, smooth landings are the norm.  I got to stare at the instruments.

4) Sure, there is more to energy control than the final landing.  

5) He probably had precision energy control at all the key positions, abeam the numbers, at the turn to base, and again at the turn to final too...

6) no fancy electronic gadgets. No flashy electronic screens or multi-color LEDs... Unless we want to include the Garmin nav/com, the bevy of video cameras, and the stick that provides electronic music files...

7) just the stall horn proceeding the light chirp of tires touching the ground.  The time between the two sounds is not enough to make a control adjustment.

8) Then there is the PALs (medical charity) flight.  Two guests enjoying what has got to be a stressful situation.

9) Is there over selling?  Is there some misrepresentation? Did I miss something?

10) There is always calm follow through.  He hangs out to discuss the extra details.  Here and in real life.  He may even point out a better way to do something that you may have forgotten. (In a nicer way than usual)

11) If I had the excess cash, I would be interested in an AOA and a G meter....(my butt isn't very sensitive since it aged) 

 

I don't think I could be like Mr. Yeager.  Be like Mike!  Being Mr. 201er wouldn't be so bad.  Smooth and in control, always.  No fancy flashy LEDs required!  He seems to share... A lot!

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

Just now, cbarry said:

From my observation point, your base to final turn (whether it's once every 30 times or not) appears as the classic "final overshoot" and the resulting crank it over to get back aligned.  We've all been there, but some have been in the same place but not lived to tell their story. 

No no. You miss the point. It is intentional. If I am too high on base, I wait to turn later so that the turn required is steeper. Steeper turn soaks up more energy. The main difference is that I drop the nose substantially to maintain a constant angle of attack in the turn. It is the people who fly by airspeed that are in trouble. They are unaware of their margins.

[cbarry]

Good luck to you--fly safe!

[MyNameIsNobody]

Throw a poll in.  60 degree bank on final-

1.Ever

2.Never

[MyNameIsNobody]

I don't want another Patrick.  This topic and type of lying is NOT a safe way to fly a Mooney.  Experienced "friends" enable vs. "Setting a tone"...When my kids tried to do unsafe things...I YELLED "NO".

This is an appropriate time for the adult to say something, not enable unnecessary and unsafe behavior.  Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is a good idea.

O.K. I can look myself in the mirror and sleep just fine.

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

So there you have it, four half pennies from a glider pilot that flies an airplane by angle of attack and thinks that flying by airspeed is an accident waiting to happen.

Airliners use airspeed and those pilots aren't able to see their AOA, and they're safer by far than any other segment of aviation, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[AndyFromCB]

48 minutes ago, 201er said:

No no. You miss the point. It is intentional. If I am too high on base, I wait to turn later so that the turn required is steeper. Steeper turn soaks up more energy. The main difference is that I drop the nose substantially to maintain a constant angle of attack in the turn. It is the people who fly by airspeed that are in trouble. They are unaware of their margins.

So what happens if you $800 made in china with bicycle bearings angle of attack probe gets stuck? I fly by airspeed and I would not be in trouble because I would not be doing this. If I overshoot that much, I'll go around for another try. Per POH, I am aware of my margins up to 45 degrees of bank, with flaps and gear down, at gross, that airspeed is 70 knots, so I never get below 90knots until established on final and never exceed 30 degrees. If I keep on flying that way, I don't think I'll get in trouble, but to each their own. Airspeed works just fine. The airplane will not slow down below 90knots at 20 inches of MP as long as it's trimmed down for 3 degrees down. I have never seen it slower than 90knots in base to final turn.

Edited September 5, 2016 by AndyFromCB

[gsengle]

I've heard this thread before. More than once. AOA sucks, blah blah blah. LOP, you'll eat up your engine, blah blah blah, electronic charts, blah blah blah.... Gnite

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[Andy95W]

33 minutes ago, gsengle said:

I've heard this thread before. More than once. AOA sucks, blah blah blah.

This certainly wasn't the point that I was making.  I think AOA is a phenomenal tool that I may one day install in my airplane.

I take issue with the OP's statement that anyone who flies by airspeed is "an accident waiting to happen."  

But I will grant that he has huge cojones for telling pilots who were flying before he was born that they've been doing it wrong all this time.

[Marauder]

Mike -- not quite sure what the message you are trying to project here? That AOA indicators can help you fix a crappy flown approach to an airport?

Personally, I have flown and misjudged a pattern like what you showed on your first landing, who hasn't? The only difference for me is that on base, I'm realizing it is screwed up and I am starting to plan my upwind go around.

On your second landing, despite your claim that you turn base to final in a position so you can make a glide to the airport, the final you showed flown was with power.

I'm hoping your thread was an attempt to liven up a rather dead week on MooneySpace. If it wasn't, just keep in the back of your mind that the aviation demon loves overly confident aviators. They make for a tasty snack.

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[Marauder]

And oh, not only am a MooneySpace poster, I am an AOA owner.

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[PTK]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

...It is intentional. If I am too high on base, I wait to turn later so that the turn required is steeper. Steeper turn soaks up more energy....It is the people who fly by airspeed that are in trouble. They are unaware of their margins.

Trying to save a botched approach by "intentionally" overshooting final and "intentionally" steepening the base to final turn as you have demonstrated in that video is poor and risky procedure. There's no good reason that I can think of to steep banks here. None. What exactly did you gain? Surely not "energy cutting." Wasting 1300 feet of valuable runway is very poor energy management. There's no law that says every approach has to end in a landing is there?

 

 

 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

You don't cut energy in a steep turn, the energy(drag) remains the same, but you do lose altitude. Ive botched final turns, and needed to make a 30 degree bank,but not 60, but I don't fly narrow patterns either.

[midlifeflyer]

Viewed the topic out of curiosity. Curiosity satisfied.

[Hank]

There's good and bad in AoA and ASI. But as mentioned, final speed of 75 light is considerably different then when heavy. Thats why I go slower when light, and I don't float much on the runway. Didn't bother watching the video, I never bank steeply in the pattern but do slip on final when necessary.

But for now, there's too much fusing and squabbling, so I'm out  here . . .