Looking at an M20F

[Jerry 5TJ]

8 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

..... It was recently professionally appraised at $206,000.00. ....

May I ask more about that appraisal?  Was it a measure of market value? Replacement cost? 

 

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I felt the need to chime in. 

I rebuilt a 1968 F model that had sat in a hangar in Dallas for 26 years.  It had been taken apart (engine, gear, panel, interior) and then put back together only to have it in one piece.  No damage Hx. 1975 hours when purchased.  The engine was field overhauled to new specs in 1982, I did an IRAN with Penn Yan Aero.  The engine has 200 hours to date, filters have been clean and no problems as of yet.  I put a new Hartzell prop on it when the eddy current AD came out.  You can see pictures of it now on my web site.  Others have commented that the only way you can tell it is an F is by seeing that it has a Johnson Bar.  It was recently professionally appraised at $206,000.00. 

As you can see, you can rebuild anything.  Take all the numbers you would expect to pay for something and multiply by 2 or 3 (unless you are doing the work yourself and are confident you can do it correctly and legally). 

John Breda

Wow John,

I just took a peak at your album, nice plane.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

Just now, M20Doc said:

Wow John,

I just took a peak at your album, nice plane.

Clarence

It must be nice, Clarence didn't say it was missing 4 of its cylinders.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, N1395W said:

It must be nice, Clarence didn't say it was missing 4 of its cylinders.

It wouldn't hurt to add a few more.

Clarence

[carusoam]

Adding them in pairs is easier than going with odd numbers of cylinders...

Just sayin'

-a-

[Yetti]

Kubota seems to make 3 work fine

[Marauder]

Kubota seems to make 3 work fine

I've got one of them there 3 bangers. Love it.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Brian Scranton]

Having just purchased one in February, I can tell ya...WOW. The F is Fing great. And what's more, there are many out there for you--so don't feel like you have to settle for one that hasn't flown. As you may know, planes need to fly. I said "no" to many because they only flew 5-10 hours per year. You're $35K plane may cost you $20K to get it safe. There's lots of $45K-$55K planes that will give you years with relatively low maintenance. As others have said, it's all about a very comprehensive pre buy--but I would call this a timed out engine for sure. So that's $30K right there! Good luck and feel free to PM me. Here are a couple birds that might fit your needs:

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/215/new-plane-details.asp

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/268/new-plane-details.asp

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/257/new-plane-details.asp

 

 

[chrixxer]

On August 13, 2016 at 5:24 AM, glafaille said:

I may have missed it but Is the seller an A&P or better yet an AI?  If this plane is a "project" plane how do you know all of the work and materials used are up to standards?  Is EVERYTHING documented in the logbook and supported by yellow tags or 8130s?  I have seen common Home Depot hardware used on owner maintained aircraft and worse on owner performed refurbs.

Be very careful.  This plane will need a VERY complete and probably expensive pre-buy inspection, ideally an annual by a Mooney Service Center.

 

Seller is a dealer and part 91 service provider, has hangars full of planes and several A&Ps on staff...

 

[chrixxer]

On August 13, 2016 at 5:49 AM, kortopates said:

Am I understanding the engine and prop haven't been been overhauled since 1970; thus 46 years old?

 

Engine (overhaul) and prop (slightly used, installed) were both done in the late 90s. Engine was replaced in 1971.

[chrixxer]

On August 13, 2016 at 10:06 AM, DaV8or said:

It is a '67 or '68. Manual gear was dropped in '68. There are no '69s with manual gear.

 

TIL; thanks!!

[chrixxer]

On August 13, 2016 at 1:52 PM, M20Doc said:

From the specs posted the prop is 1996 and the engine has to be newer as it has less time than the prop.

 

The prop had some time on it when it was installed.

[chrixxer]

4 hours ago, Brian Scranton said:

Having just purchased one in February, I can tell ya...WOW. The F is Fing great. And what's more, there are many out there for you--so don't feel like you have to settle for one that hasn't flown. As you may know, planes need to fly. I said "no" to many because they only flew 5-10 hours per year. You're $35K plane may cost you $20K to get it safe. There's lots of $45K-$55K planes that will give you years with relatively low maintenance. As others have said, it's all about a very comprehensive pre buy--but I would call this a timed out engine for sure. So that's $30K right there! Good luck and feel free to PM me. Here are a couple birds that might fit your needs:

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/215/new-plane-details.asp

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/268/new-plane-details.asp

http://www.lasar.com/w/id/257/new-plane-details.asp

 

 

Thanks! (Though thought a rebuilt IO-360 was about $20K? http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul ) I like the quadrant throttles on the later-model Fs, but I've heard horror stories about the frailty (MX nightmare, is how it was described) of the M20's electric landing gear...?

Definitely want the stretched "F"-style fuselage, though, both for passenger capacity and because I've heard it's a more stable platform in, e.g., IMC.

I'm new to all of this, so forgive me if I have bad info!

[mooniac15u]

11 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

 

Seller is a dealer and part 91 service provider, has hangars full of planes and several A&Ps on staff...

 

A dealer and a maintenance shop and they didn't know the registration was expired?

[chrixxer]

Just now, mooniac15u said:

A dealer and a maintenance shop and they didn't know the registration was expired?

The guy who was showing me the plane didn't know it was expired. The owner of the shop, apparently, did (he attributes it to "[his] own laziness"). In other news, it's apparently "on dealer registration currently," and that the occasional flights are being done "on dealer registration...

[Yetti]

The later model Fs were a test bed for the J.   I don't think the J drivers are going to feel good knowing they have a fragile landing gear system....

The gear linkages is all the same, just a bar was replaced with a motor and a couple relays and limit switches

Edited August 16, 2016 by Yetti

[mooniac15u]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The later model Fs were a test bed for the J.   I don't think the J drivers are going to feel good knowing they have a fragile landing gear system....

He must be referring to that little plastic piece in the floor indicator. Very fragile in the M20F...

[chrixxer]

Just now, Yetti said:

The later model Fs were a test bed for the J.   I don't think the J drivers are going to feel good knowing they have a fragile landing gear system....

Like I said, I'm "Jon Snow" in this endeavor. I may have been given bad info. But a number of folks, even while not saying anything bad about the newer gear systems, have spoken highly of the simplicity and mechanical reliability of the manual landing gear; "there's nothing to go wrong!" says the owner of an M20B (and a fleet of Pipers, including a retractable Apache).

Then I read little asides like this one: “[M]ost Mooney pilots wondered why in the world the company complicated a good thing with an electrically operated landing gear.” http://airfactsjournal.com/2014/03/whats-wrong-mooney-pilots-lot/

And this: “Many Mooney pilots swear by the Johnson bar. Through my research I even read a discussion thread on which a few owners were looking into converting their electric-gear airplanes to the manually actuated system. Their argument for the Johnson bar was that it is less expensive to maintain and less prone to failure.” http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pistons/mooney-makeover-buying-airplane

The simpler operation and lower MX costs are brought up several times in this thread here, as well: 

 

At the end of the day, I like simple. I still drive the '95 Jeep Wrangler I bought new 22 years ago to drive to California. (I also have an E46 BMW that has a little too much in the gizmo department, and I've had some bewildering and expensive situations with that car - like a malfunctioning driver's side door handle that would inexplicably, while the car was parked and untouched, unlock the car, lower the windows part way, and leave the convertible top in some state of partial retraction...)

 

 

 

[jetdriven]

32 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

Thanks! (Though thought a rebuilt IO-360 was about $20K? http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul ) I like the quadrant throttles on the later-model Fs, but I've heard horror stories about the frailty (MX nightmare, is how it was described) of the M20's electric landing gear...?

Definitely want the stretched "F"-style fuselage, though, both for passenger capacity and because I've heard it's a more stable platform in, e.g., IMC.

I'm new to all of this, so forgive me if I have bad info!

For a REAL overhaul, it's around 28-30K installed.   Anything less is less.  We had to overhaul that at 1400 hours.  But we paid 24k and that was owner assist. 

[DaV8or]

45 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

... but I've heard horror stories about the frailty (MX nightmare, is how it was described) of the M20's electric landing gear...?

Don't fear the M20 electric gear. It is neither frail, nor a maintenance nightmare. It does have weak points to keep an eye on depending on which era gear you have, but it's pretty straight forward. It is still the cheapest and most reliable of any electric gear airplane on the market ever. Also remember that the actual gear mechanism is the same as the manual gear, so it is just as stout in a hard landing, strong crosswinds, etc. The only real difference between the Mooney electric gear and the manual gear is the activation device. The former uses an electric motor with a gear reduction and the latter uses your right arm and a lever.

[DaV8or]

37 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

Like I said, I'm "Jon Snow" in this endeavor. I may have been given bad info. But a number of folks, even while not saying anything bad about the newer gear systems, have spoken highly of the simplicity and mechanical reliability of the manual landing gear; "there's nothing to go wrong!" says the owner of an M20B (and a fleet of Pipers, including a retractable Apache).

Then I read little asides like this one: “[M]ost Mooney pilots wondered why in the world the company complicated a good thing with an electrically operated landing gear.” http://airfactsjournal.com/2014/03/whats-wrong-mooney-pilots-lot/

And this: “Many Mooney pilots swear by the Johnson bar. Through my research I even read a discussion thread on which a few owners were looking into converting their electric-gear airplanes to the manually actuated system. Their argument for the Johnson bar was that it is less expensive to maintain and less prone to failure.” http://www.flyingmag.com/aircraft/pistons/mooney-makeover-buying-airplane

The simpler operation and lower MX costs are brought up several times in this thread here, as well: 

 

At the end of the day, I like simple. I still drive the '95 Jeep Wrangler I bought new 22 years ago to drive to California. (I also have an E46 BMW that has a little too much in the gizmo department, and I've had some bewildering and expensive situations with that car - like a malfunctioning driver's side door handle that would inexplicably, while the car was parked and untouched, unlock the car, lower the windows part way, and leave the convertible top in some state of partial retraction...)

 

 

 

Keep in mind that there are things that can go wrong with the manual gear and there have been plenty of manual gear collapses in the past. It is a simpler system for sure.  There are pros and cons to both systems, so in the end, I was ambivalent in which I got when I was shopping. I considered a manual gear to be a slight plus, but electric gear was not a show stopper. I ended up with electric gear and in six years of ownership it has caused me no headaches and has functioned perfectly every time.

[carusoam]

Select the gear that you want...

Manual or electric fail so infrequently it Is only an opinion that somebody got printed in a magazine.

Experienced pilots have learned that they can forget putting the gear down in both electric or manual formats.

The additional maintenance during the annual is pretty much the same...  jack up the plane,  raise the gear, lower the gear ...

Getting the gear set up properly is important.  The maintenance procedures are well documented.

We had one MS member that had collapsed the nose gear twice.  No explanation to go with that...

As for expenses, there are more things in aviation that are more expensive.  Flying slowly in brand C or P, with fixed gear hanging out makes a good example of expensive ways to fly.

First plane, go all manual.

Last plane, go all electric.

Enjoy them both!

The PPI is critical to test the details of both prior to purchase.

Best regards,

-a-

[chrixxer]

Just now, carusoam said:

As for expenses, there are more things in aviation that are more expensive.  Flying slowly in brand C or P, with fixed gear hanging out makes a good example of expensive ways to fly.

 

Heh. Yeah. Most of my time lately (I got my PPL in October, I have ~200 hours total time, 54 of those in the last 90 days) has been in an SR22 G2 or a PA28R-200. The Arrow costs me $20/hr more to rent (+12% more), but cruises about 45kts faster (GPS measured ground speed) (+46% faster) than the Warriors I was renting... The Cirrus is, um, a lot faster, but slurps down fuel at a prodigious rate, and I can buy a Mooney for less than 6 months of rental costs on the Cirrus...

 

 

[carusoam]

One other MSer is chronicling his training for his PPL using a Cirrus on the left coast...

Renting by the hour is expensive. Doesn't usually go far during the weekend either.

That's why we are Mooney owners.  Fast and efficient, safe and looks cool to.

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

7 hours ago, chrixxer said:

Thanks! (Though thought a rebuilt IO-360 was about $20K? http://www.coronaengines.com/Engine-Overhaul ) I like the quadrant throttles on the later-model Fs, but I've heard horror stories about the frailty (MX nightmare, is how it was described) of the M20's electric landing gear...?

Definitely want the stretched "F"-style fuselage, though, both for passenger capacity and because I've heard it's a more stable platform in, e.g., IMC.

I'm new to all of this, so forgive me if I have bad info!

The real weakness in the Mooney gear system occupies the front left seat.

Clarence