How does Mooney handle the Stall?

[JoeB]

I am currently on the hunt for a good mooney F .   As I have been reading I have discovered that Mooney has a less than favorable Stall,

I have yet to fly in a mooney but after looking at all the numbers a good F model would fit my needs.

does anyone have any comments on overall stall,  or handling in general for the F models?

the reason I am looking at F is I really want a J, but my wallet doesn't .....

C/E are better priced,  but I still need that extra few inches in the back seat.

 

anyways...

thanks

 

Joe

[scottfromiowa]

Other posts out there on this.  Stalls in a Mooney are a NON-Event IF you have the ball centered.  If NOT centered they will drop a wing...fast...and scare the HELL out of you.  I only did it once...because that is one to many times.  That said I recovered with no problem and scolded myself for NOT having ball centered. 

Do NOT spin a Mooney.  They lose about a 1,000 feet minimum before recovery.

[Sabremech]

Hi Joe,

Having gone through training in my Mooney several months ago, the Mooney handles a stall just fine. My C model did not drop a wing or exhibit any severe buffeting. I'm not sure where you read or heard this, as I never heard anything bad about stalls in Mooney's when I purchased mine.

You will find the Mooney to be a fantastic machine in all of it's flight envelope. The hardest thing to do is to slow it up on descent. Just takes a little practice.

Good luck on your hunt for an F model. You will not be disappointed.

 

[aerobat95]

Joe,

I just went through the purchase of a '74F and love it.  The airplane handles very well.  My biggest issue with flying the Mooney was getting used to flying a small airplane again.  I am here to tell you that I am very happy with my decision to go with the F.  I was looking at the E and really liked them, but having a small child and having my wife fly in the back seat...the extra room is perfect.  With my seat in flying position my wife has over a foot of space back there.  Way better than any airline seat.  As far as stalls go....pretty much a non event....at least the ones I have done.  You get a little buffet and thats about it.  Add power and like I said its pretty much a non event.    Handling is great.  A very stable IFR platform.  Once you get her all trimmed up you can pretty much fly hands off.  On my trip back from purchasing it there were periods of 15 minutes where I didnt have to touch the controls.  If you have any other questions feel free to shoot me an email.  Good luck and like it has been said....you won't be disappointed.

 

Ray

[Immelman]

Regarding Mooney stalls..

Some caution is advised here, here is why:

1. Mooneys, in my opinion, have a rather small rudder and reduced rudder authority compared to other light single engine airplanes and trainers. When doing stalls power-on, for example, I suggest not going above cruise power (65-70% or so). The reason is that you may not be able to remain coordinated with full right rudder approaching the stall at higher power settings.

2. Stall *recovery* is quick and easy. The pre-stall buffet is a nice aerodynamic warning. However, if you hold it into a full stall there can be the tendency for a wing to drop, and because of the smaller rudder it takes time to bring the wing back up vs. entering an incipient spin. In my airplane a wing will drop even if coordination is proper and the 'full' stall held. Again, promptly reducing angle of attack will break the stall -- I'm talking about intentionally taking it just a bit further.

3. Mooney's are not, of course, approved for spins. Per part 23 requirements, the factory had to demonstrate that a spin was recoverable to 1 turn or 3 seconds, which ever comes first. Beyond that, there's no guarantee.

[DaV8or]

I agree with all that has been said above. However, the experience I have had in my Mooney is that upon a full stall with the ball centered it still dropped a wing and the stall is sharp. There really is no mushing like there is in a Cherokee or Skyhawk. I read about stall characteristics here before I ever flew a Mooney, so when I was instructed to do a complete stall, I was very careful to keep the ball centered. It dropped a wing anyways.

The good news is, the Mooney gives you lots of warning before the stall. Horn goes off way before you are actually close and then there is very pronounced buffeting. If you keep going, you drop. Recovery is easy and just like any other plane, but you do have to do it right away or it might turn into a spin and those I am told, aren't so easy to recover. I really, really, hope to never go there. I would not let the stall behavior of the Mooney keep you from in any way getting one. The F is a perfect choice for your mission on a budget. I know, I wanted first and E, then a J, but I bought an F.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Stalls in this aircraft are nothing to be afraid of, and you will have ample warning of one impending.

Any CFI who says "Never do stalls in a Mooney" is not one who needs to be giving your insurance checkout.

[mooney231]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Stalls in this aircraft are nothing to be afraid of, and you will have ample warning of one impending.

Any CFI who says "Never do stalls in a Mooney" is not one who needs to be giving your insurance checkout.

[Kwixdraw]

IMHO the only tricky part of the stall in a Mooney is just staying calm and ahead of the aircraft. I had the experience of the spin entry but it was with an instructor who wanted me to do something in a way I was unfamiliar with, and when I was a bit rusty to begin with. We went very deep into a  departure stall and while the aircraft was wallowing around a bit I got antsy and input some aileron which immediately stalled the wing and rolled us over. Got a great full windshield view of the ocean for a second or two but pulled power and recovered OK.  I wouldn't want to do this again but there is another reason not to besides the obvious aerial gymnastics. The IO360-A3B6D has dampers on the crankshaft and you really shouldn't be horsing the throttle on that one from high settings to idle as in the case of my adventure. This could damage the pins and bushings and detune the dampers to the point that they are not protecting the crankshaft from excess torsional loads. I prefer my crankshafts in one piece. I would go with Parkers advice that you find an instructor that has a rep as a Mooney qualified instructor and have him show you the ropes without doing stupid stuff and risking your butt or your engine.

[mjc]

I noticed a couple of responses to the effect that their Mooney will drop a wing during a stall even with the ball centered. I felt I should respond because my airplane did this as well when I bought it. During my insurance checkout, Don Kaye told me that this is NOT "normal" and that I should have the rigging adjusted. Ever since, for the last eight years, the airplane stalls straight ahead, every single time, with the ball centered.

I should also note that I do use full power when demonstrating departure stalls. (And even if I didn't want to, Don Kaye makes me do it.) There is plenty of rudder available to keep the plane coordinated. Mine is a 69 model, which has the full-length rudder, and that may be a factor.

[Kwixdraw]

MJC may be on to something with the rigging. I know my aircraft had not had the "best" maintenence before I bought it and some of the aileron end links had been replaced so there may be a problem right there. It will be correct before it goes airborne again though.  Still I would say it was me being a clod in my example and an instructor not knowing when to say enough is enough.

[jlunseth]

I heard so much about stall issues that I had a CFI fly with me to practice my first few stalls in my K, I expected all kinds of bad things.  It was a total non-event.  The tendency to drop a wing is much less than in a Cessna, and I thought, even less than in the Warriors I had been used to.  Long bodies may be different, those are the planes about which there are some articles about adverse stall conditions. 

[mooney231]

Quote: jlunseth

I heard so much about stall issues that I had a CFI fly with me to practice my first few stalls in my K, I expected all kinds of bad things.  It was a total non-event.  The tendency to drop a wing is much less than in a Cessna, and I thought, even less than in the Warriors I had been used to.  Long bodies may be different, those are the planes about which there are some articles about adverse stall conditions. 

[DaV8or]

All this talk of stalls does make me wonder why we demonstrate them in the first place. If one was to ever actually accidently enter a departure stall, do you think they will be focusing all their attention on the turn coordinator? I don't think so, and the ball will be a little bit off, or a lot off and the airplane will head for a spin. I think the act of forcing your Mooney into a full stall with all your concentration focused on the slip/skid ball is so artificial that the only purpose of the exercise is to show the new Mooney pilot what it stalls like and the warning signs leading up to it. After a full stall has been experienced once, IMO it never needs repeating. Approach to stall is OK I guess, where the plane begins to buffet with the horn screaming at you because this is where you would no doubt actually recover in a real event.

Just my opinion, but seeing how close to a spin you can get without spinning, with a plane that is known to be tough to recover from a spin, is pushing the boundries of safety for little benefit. I see no reason to ever practice doing full stalls or to do it more than once.

[skyking]

I am with most of the posts here. In my "A" model a stall is a non event. I did a few steep ones, power on and off during my checkout ride and it always was straight ahead with the ball centred. The wing never dropped at all.

[mjc]

Quote: DaV8or

All this talk of stalls does make me wonder why we demonstrate them in the first place. If one was to ever actually accidently enter a departure stall, do you think they will be focusing all their attention on the turn coordinator? I don't think so, and the ball will be a little bit off, or a lot off and the airplane will head for a spin. I think the act of forcing your Mooney into a full stall with all your concentration focused on the slip/skid ball is so artificial that the only purpose of the exercise is to show the new Mooney pilot what it stalls like and the warning signs leading up to it. After a full stall has been experienced once, IMO it never needs repeating. Approach to stall is OK I guess, where the plane begins to buffet with the horn screaming at you because this is where you would no doubt actually recover in a real event.

Just my opinion, but seeing how close to a spin you can get without spinning, with a plane that is known to be tough to recover from a spin, is pushing the boundries of safety for little benefit. I see no reason to ever practice doing full stalls or to do it more than once.

[Jeff_S]

Here's an interesting related topic. I did practice stalls in my transition training, and remember them being not too bad. I get shivers down my spine even thinking about stalls which goes all the way back to primary training days when I had a major wing drop in my trainer doing my first unassisted power-on stall. Amazing how that "primacy" stuff stays with you.

But my issue is this. Although my stall warning horn goes off just fine when triggered manually during preflight, it has never activated in-flight, even when we were doing the stalls. I had Joey Cole give it a look one time and he thought it might be because there's a bit of paint on the upper arm that was throwing off the weighting. That paint was probably left by a prior owner doing some touch-up work. I haven't bothered trying to remove the paint or otherwise fix it because I religiously stay away from stall situations anyway (see above!) but does anybody have any ideas on what I might try? Is there some testing device you can use on the ground to determine at what AOA the lever will actually move?

[DaV8or]

Quote: Jeff_S

Although my stall warning horn goes off just fine when triggered manually during preflight, it has never activated in-flight, even when we were doing the stalls. I had Joey Cole give it a look one time and he thought it might be because there's a bit of paint on the upper arm that was throwing off the weighting. That paint was probably left by a prior owner doing some touch-up work. I haven't bothered trying to remove the paint or otherwise fix it because I religiously stay away from stall situations anyway (see above!) but does anybody have any ideas on what I might try? Is there some testing device you can use on the ground to determine at what AOA the lever will actually move?

[DaV8or]

Quote: mjc

The reason I like to practice stalls at altitude is to know, not guess, what the airplane's behavior is at a high angle of attack. I want to know several things. One is exactly how long (in airspeed) I have between the stall warning going off and the airplane actually stalling. I want to know that even if I do stall the airplane, that I can recover in 100 feet and not 1000, and without a wing dropping. I want to know that I can do that now, not eight years ago. Every time I come into a short field over trees with a feeling of confidence and comfort, the practice pays off.

[carusoam]

Thoughts on stalls

Most important when you first fly your (new to you) plane.

[1] Know what speed the stall horn sets off.

[2] Know what speed the stall actually occurs.  (or does not occur - your choice).

The reason for this is, like any other instrument, the airspeed indicator is a (mechanical or electrical) device that can either be broken or out of calibration.  I rely on my airspeed indicator to set my approach speed.  I would hate to accidently set it too low during my first experiences with a new plane.

In other words, if we trust the POH to supply the propper numbers, we want to be sure the ASI replies with proper information.  The best way to test this is at altitude.  Test the bottom of the white and green arcs for yourself.

I have much more confidence in my POH derived approach speeds knowing that the white and green arcs are meaningful an appropriate for my individual aircraft.  Nothing more uncomfortable than a bug in the pitot tube.

I find that on my smoothest of landings the stall horn will sound through the last portion of the flair.  If the horn does not sound, I am probably too fast and a less favorable landing is accomplished.  I once flew with a great copilot who called out airspeeds as we descended and landed on a short runway.  I would really like that as an automated voice in my headset.

This information applies to all airplanes that I have flown, not just Moonies.  Reply to the OP.  Moonies can avoid stalls like any other airplane.  If your are planning on training with stalls:  Power on, power off, accelerated stalls.

I think the accelerated stall is most interesting because this simulates the turn to final. 

I have used the stall horn indicator as a supplement to the ASI to maintain safe flight during a partial power failure.  Keep flying the plane and maintain altitude on low power requires a pretty high angle of attack.

Personal thought.  I enjoyed full stall training.  However, I prefer to stress the airframe of a trainer than my own.

-a-

[Immelman]

Quote: mjc

 The reason I like to practice stalls at altitude is to know, not guess, what the airplane's behavior is at a high angle of attack. I want to know several things. One is exactly how long (in airspeed) I have between the stall warning going off and the airplane actually stalling. I want to know that even if I do stall the airplane, that I can recover in 100 feet and not 1000, and without a wing dropping. I want to know that I can do that now, not eight years ago. Every time I come into a short field over trees with a feeling of confidence and comfort, the practice pays off.

[scottfromiowa]

O.K. Dave so let me get this straight...you are suggesting practicing uncoordinated intentional stalls (NOT having ball centered) to simulate "real stall situations"...or practicing poor airmanship because in the event that you do really make turns in pattern with reduced airspeed/un-coordinated aircraft you will be able to recover?  That strikes me as NOT being what you should do.  Why invite a potential spin?  I practice slow flight clean and dirty and power on/off stalls because it shows you how the plane will react and what you need to do to recover.  I completely disagree with your suggestion of covering the T&B or "looking at a sectional" etc...I.E. simulating poor airmanship.

For the pilot that is dead AFRAID of stalls...you need to overcome this as the aircraft will perform consistently the same way when completed properly and a stall horn while in the flare is indeed a beautiful thing...followed by a light "chirp".  AHHHHhhhh perfection for a moment in time with all the sights, sounds and cues that the experience shares...

 

[fantom]

Quote: scottfromiowa

That strikes me as NOT being what you should do.  Why invite a potential spin?  I practice slow flight clean and dirty and power on/off stalls because it shows you how the plane will react and what you need to do to recover. 

[DaV8or]

Quote: scottfromiowa

O.K. Dave so let me get this straight...you are suggesting practicing uncoordinated intentional stalls (NOT having ball centered) to simulate "real stall situations"...or practicing poor airmanship because in the event that you do really make turns in pattern with reduced airspeed/un-coordinated aircraft you will be able to recover?  That strikes me as NOT being what you should do.  Why invite a potential spin?  I practice slow flight clean and dirty and power on/off stalls because it shows you how the plane will react and what you need to do to recover.  I completely disagree with your suggestion of covering the T&B or "looking at a sectional" etc...I.E. simulating poor airmanship..

[scottfromiowa]

Thanks for reply Dave.  As my Alabama friend says "10-4"  I used to love roller coasters and enjoy the times I was "along for the ride" with experienced pilots performing some light acrobatics.  I remember when my instructor (a 19 year old with 1,000 hours) and I were practicing in a 152 and I said "ever do a hammerhead"?  He said want to do one?  I said in this?  He said sure, but he would deny it if I told the owners...I said "proceed"  We did three beauties back to back and my stomach...and I said "O.K. back to turns about a point..."