Cirrus SR20 down in Houston

[kevinw]

Three people killed at KHOU when a SR20 stalls when attempting to land. Judging from the audio, it sounds like the female pilot was very inexperienced and having trouble controlling the airplane. Very sad deal. http://www.click2houston.com/news/audio-recording-between-pilot-and-hobby-airport-sheds-light-on-accident

[ArtVandelay]

There is already a thread in Miscellaneous forum.

[DVA]

39 minutes ago, kevinw said:

Three people killed at KHOU when a SR20 stalls when attempting to land. Judging from the audio, it sounds like the female pilot was very inexperienced and having trouble controlling the airplane. Very sad deal. http://www.click2houston.com/news/audio-recording-between-pilot-and-hobby-airport-sheds-light-on-accident

If you listen to the whole audio you’ll find that ATC will likely be a contributing factor in this accident.

[kevinw]

2 minutes ago, DVA said:

If you listen to the whole audio you’ll find that ATC will likely be a contributing factor in this accident.

I've been to liveatc.com and can't find it. I'd like to hear it. If you know where it's at, please post a link.

23 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

There is already a thread in Miscellaneous forum.

I looked in general and didn't see anything. Should've looked a little further; sorry about that.

[201er]

7 minutes ago, DVA said:

If you listen to the whole audio you’ll find that ATC will likely be a contributing factor in this accident.

I don't think so. In all honesty, they went easy on her and were extremely accommodating for the kind of airport it is. I don't think Kennedy Tower controllers, for example, would put up with a newbie that can't figure out how to stay on glidepath. After a second failed attempt they'd probably just tell you to vacate the bravo squawk VFR.

Based on currently available information, my probable cause report would be "Airplane impacted hardware store half mile north of departure end of 35 upon go-around. Failure to maintain airspeed resulted in a loss of control stall. Insufficient altitude to activate parachute. Air traffic control was busy but as accommodating as they could be for this type of airspace. A contributing factor was the pilot's lack of experience/confidence to be landing at a congested bravo airport."

Edited June 10, 2016 by 201er

[ArtVandelay]

My only criticism of the controller was the last long winded verbage of what he was going to, probably only added to the load overload of the pilot.

[kevinw]

Found the audio on the other thread. Tough to listen to. I think the controller was very accommodating but getting frustrated, and for good reason. The pilot was rattled but very courteous and apologetic which made it hard for the controller to be too tough on her. It reminds me of when I first started flying and how intimidating ATC can be to new pilots. I can't imagine flying into a bravo airport as a new inexperienced pilot. What a terrible loss.  

[Mcoyne34]

The controller was extremely helpful and accommodating. I don't see how some of you say it's partially his fault. He knew she was nervous, based on her voice. Sounded like he was trying to somewhat talk her through it and keep her calm. 

[Raptor05121]

5 hours ago, 201er said:

 Insufficient altitude to activate parachute

I thought SR20s didnt have parachutes?

[Mcoyne34]

She was probably too low for it to be effective. 

[1524J]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Wow. He is the controller of the year as far as I am concerned. He displayed incredible patience and professionalism.  Such an unfortunate situation.  RIP to the departed. 

Agree....I've tested a few controllers patience in my time and thought he was very professional.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

I thought SR20s didnt have parachutes?

I thought that all planes have pilots.  This flight did not need a parachute.

Clarence

[cbarry]

The one command the controller gave that can contribute to a pilot (inexperienced or not) trying to comply and forgetting they're in the seat that moves not the controller is when he says: "keep it in tight".   There have been two accidents that I'm aware of  (this one included) by which the same instruction (both by the way in an elevated tone of voice)  was given and shortly thereafter the pilot entered into a stall and then a spin (both in Cirrus').  This is not to say that any fault should be directed at the controller whatsoever, but simply that the pilot is the one in command of the aircraft and should remain in that mode at all times--whether this means saying roger that, thank you sir for your help or unable.  

[ArtVandelay]

The controller was extremely helpful and accommodating. I don't see how some of you say it's partially his fault. He knew she was nervous, based on her voice. Sounded like he was trying to somewhat talk her through it and keep her calm. 

I didn't say it was his fault, but it did happen while he was talking, I know personally that I have a hard time concentrating and trying to listen to a long convoluted speech, just saying it might have been better to keep instructions simple till she has leveled out.

And I don't think it help telling her to keep the turns tight, but she is the PIC, so ultimately it's her fault.

In retrospect they should have vector her back out for another approach to 4, she seem comfortable with that, it was the controller who called for the go around on the first approach to 4.

We can all learn from this, pilots and controllers included.

[ArtVandelay]

The one command the controller gave that can contribute to a pilot (inexperienced or not) trying to comply and forgetting they're in the seat that moves not the controller is when he says: "keep it in tight".   There have been two accidents that I'm aware of  (this one included) by which the same instruction (both by the way in an elevated tone of voice)  was given and shortly thereafter the pilot entered into a stall and then a spin (both in Cirrus').  This is not to say that any fault should be directed at the controller whatsoever, but simply that the pilot is the one in command of the aircraft and should remain in that mode at all times--whether this means saying roger that, thank you sir for your help or unable.  

That was the Melbourne,Florida accident, similar in that the tower was focus on getting the plane to a particular runway and ended up talking a lot and changing runways which distracted the controller and when he realized there was conflict he commanded the cirrus to turn tight to avoid the traffic which was still quite a ways away.

Search in YouTube fir "accident case study communication breakdown "

[Danb]

I recently was coming into Kilg and was given left base 27, then to keep it tight a Lear is second for 27, I requested a 360 and was told your ok cleared to land 27. The Lear landed about 4 minutes later while I was near my hanger. Seems to many controllers don't have pilots lic. and aren't sure what we can/ can't do.

[Bravoman]

Very interesting. I have never heard a tower controller get involved with PIC decision making like telling a pilot they were too high to execute the approach to the runway. With the length of the runways there it would be hard to know if that might have made a difference as getting her on the ground at that point would probably have been best as she was obviously unraveling as the whole thing progressed. The PIC here allowed the controller to usurp her decision making as to whether to complete that approach probably due to her inexperience and lack of confidence. From a legal standpoint I don't think the controller did anything wrong that proximately led to the accident but the caveat is whether he violated any  applicable procedural rules.  He was very accommodating like I've never seen before and I feel for him because as a human being I'm sure he feels terrible about what happened.

[mccdeuce]

I have flown in and out of Hobby quite a few times. To include when I was a relatively new pilot. On one occasion shortly after take off from the parallels I went lost comm. I freaked and probably screwed over a southwest flight or two. Took me a while to realize they were talking to me over the VOR. They were extremely helpful and friendly controllers and kept me safe. 

 

Ultimately with this latest incident I would classify controller comms as a "rejected causal factor." While the comms may have been distracting the cause was pilot induced stall. A lesson learned for controllers can be to avoid comms like "Keep it tight" when you obviously have a struggling pilot. 

 

Disappointed in the controllers for not using all their "tools" though. An ASR approach would have slowed and calmed the overall situation down as well as recaged the pilot into a comfort zone and re established the pilots situational awareness. While not a published IFR approach at Hobby it is extremely helpful in situations like that. Can even be done "no gyro" with calls from the controller for "stop turn." 

 

its a a tragic loss - thoughts go to the families and hopefully we all take something away from it. 

[FloridaMan]

A friend of mine lost his light twin and partner due to a controller error in Tennessee -- Nashville, I think. Controller brought him in on an ILS in IMC too close to a landing heavy on a parallel runway. Wake turbulence was the cause. No way you could've known in IMC. 

[201er]

If the pilot was overwhelmed, she could have easily requested to get out of the bravo and controllers would have been relieved. She could have diverted 6 miles southwest to Houston Southwest airport with a 5000ft runway pointing straight into the wind and all the go arounds she'd have fuel for. Would also take the pressure off. This is not only a case of poor airmanship (stall) but also poor decision making (not taking charge) and poor attitude (beginner into bravo).

Perhaps we will learn of other contributing factors, but it is still poor airmanship that crashed the airplane. The path images show a left hand turn just prior to the crash. This would indicate a crosswind to tailwind turn in a climb. She confused ground speed for airspeed and flew it too slow (in regards to airspeed). She confused speed for angle of attack which made the barely adequate airspeed in the straight ahead become a stall/spin in the turn. 

Good decisions with bad airmanship or bad decisions with good airmanship might have squeaked by. But making mistakes in both can be deadly. 

Just my four half pennies.

[FloridaMan]

 

[Danb]

9 minutes ago, Antares said:

 

Unreal, it's amazing how the plastic plane exploded upon impact. 

[kevinw]

On 6/11/2016 at 11:47 AM, Antares said:

 

This is really tough to watch but it confirms stall/spin theory.

[flyboy0681]

Just how does on recover from a flat spin? What (if any) is the procedure?

[201er]

Just now, flyboy0681 said:

Just how does on recover from a flat spin? What (if any) is the procedure?

From low altitude? It stops spinning when it hits the ground.