Thinking about upgrading panel

[Pritch]

I have a full King Silver Panel that is out dated.  Going to get rid of the RNAV, ADF, VFR GPS and KY197.  Thinking about  a King KSN770 or GTN 650 and trading the 76A transponder for the plug n play 74 for ADS-B out.  Everything else is King (HSI, AI KX165 and KFC150) so I just might want to stay all King.  I welcome any thoughts.

Pritch

 

[Danb]

Only thought is if money allows is to also get glass panel like Chris has or the Garmin 500/600 like Don K has then you would bet set for years. Good luck having fun spending money.

[Guest Mike261]

Pritch,

I am at the same crossroads as you. I had decided on the GTN 750. Then a bunch of stuff needed attention on my airplane and ate my avionics budget. So i had to put it off. Now there are different options for the GTN that include a simpler cheaper route to ADSB compliance and i'm glad i got delayed.

To boot...i've been flying a lot of actual IFR with my IPAD and my old outmoded King 94 GPS. I have discovered something in the last two months...I hate the old inner outer knob set up of the king GPS. Its clunky and time consuming to enter anything into the unit and seems antiquated...BUT Ive been getting thrashed up here in the northeast with moderate chop for the last two months. It is even more aggravating trying to call up approach plates not the iPad using foreflight...i get jostled and hit the wrong soft key and then i have to go back, back, and try to hit it again...and i have to be looking at it to do it, which means my scan suffers. in contrast, working the 94 my hand is on a knob and i can count the clicks to get close and then take a glance over and see if i hit the number or how many more clicks i need to add or subtract, then i dial it in and take another glance. The knob is easy to find without looking, and the movement is intuitive even though the menu pages are not. i love the old inner outer knob now. but i want the touchscreen for smooth air. now i'm considering the kin 770 again...but theres no ads b in function yet on the 770, no flight plan transfer, lots of stuff that garmin is out front on. but i read that the adsb and iPad integration is in TSO right now...so is the ki 300. so i will wait a little longer and maybe eventually succumb to big G because they have all the bells and whistles.

but ill tell you this, after dealing with the iPad this winter and spring in new england, i really want a knob i can grab in turbulence. to operate a touch screen you have to look at it, i don't care how familiar you are with it...you have to look over there the entire time you are poking at it, and your scan is shot.

I equate it to driving, do you prefer a volume knob that you can blindly reach over and adjust while keeping your eyes on the road, or soft keys that you have to tap multiple times after looking over to find them?

like i said...at a crossroads

mike

 

[carusoam]

We need somebody to be first with the KSN770.

everybody has GTNs and Avidynes already.

Big G wants your subscription money.

Avidyne wants you to be all touch screen and wireless keypad.

BK wants you to have their label attached to all the other suppliers boxes like PS and Trigg.

I think we may have waited too long.

ADF and DME don't look very modern anymore....

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest Mike261]

Just now, carusoam said:

We need somebody to be first with the KSN770.

everybody has GTNs and Avidynes already.

Big G wants your subscription money.

Avidyne wants you to be all touch screen and wireless keypad.

BK wants you to have their label attached to all the other suppliers boxes like PS and Trigg.

I think we may have waited too long.

ADF and DME don't look very modern anymore....

Best regards,

-a-

plus...the data plan for BK is under 300 per year

[Guest Mike261]

lets see how the ADSB integration TSO goes...I may very well be the first...The CB in me is finding the KSN hard to resist as well

[donkaye]

I'm now 2 ½ years into my new panel.  The options for GPS now are GTN 750, GTN 650 , IFD 540, IFD 440, and the KSN 770.  I wanted something everybody is buying.  I wanted something that would have an easy interface to other products.  I wanted something who ergonomics I really liked.  I wanted something whose software would be constantly updated to bring new features to it without the need to buy a need unit.

For me it was the GTN 750.  It is a hybrid unit in that for many functions you can use the knob or the touch screen.  I find I use the knob mostly for frequency entry.  There have been several software updates since my panel was upgraded and with each one brought  a slew go new great features.

Because I went mostly all Garmin, there were absolutely no interface issues and the engine monitor, MVP 50, and the ESI 500 backup attitude indicator interfaced easily with the Garmin units.  Also, the KFC 150 smoothly interfaced with the Garmin products.

Lots of discounts were available when I bought my hardware, as they are if you purchase around Oshkosh time. Since I did my upgrade, Garmin has come out the GTX 345 Transponder that would have same me a little time and money by requiring one less piece of hardware, but after all this time I couldn't be happier with my setup.

Before you start buying a lot of equipment from a variety of vendors think carefully about how many interface issues you might have by trying to go a little cheaper than the Garmin products.

 

[Bob_Belville]

+1 for the GTN 750 for the reasons Don cites. I went a cheaper route with a GDL 88 for ADS-B in/out, a JPI EDM 930 and an Aspen for GPSS to go with my STEC50. It's been 3.5 years and I would do it the same way again.

[Raptor05121]

Bob, are you fully 2020 ADS-B out with that setup?

[Marauder]

23 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

Bob, are you fully 2020 ADS-B out with that setup?

Bob is compliant, just ask his wife.

If you have any of Garmin's products (GDL-84, GDL-88, RTX-345, GTX-33ES, GTX-330ES) you are compliant. A lot of people forget the requirement is only the "out" piece of this. If you buy an ES transponder, you are compliant. I think some owners are fine with a squitter transponder coupled with a portable ADS-B In solution. The advantage of the 84, 88 and 345 "in" is that it will display on your GPS or other displays. 

[mike_elliott]

I went with an Aspen, a Lynx 9000, jpi, still have a trusty 430W that may be upgraded to an Avidyne 440 now that they have a fantastic interface with the IPAD to give a huge screen and plug and play with the existing 430w. All in, much cheaper than the All Garmin solution, and  less annual "vig" to pay. They all play nice together (well, waiting on the Avidyne/Lynx piece prior to Avidyne, but that should happen soon per my sources, right Simpson?) Has a few extra features also, like metars, wx and traffic displayed on the touch screen xponder in addition to the IPAD, GNS, Aspen. While it may be cheaper than the 70+K Garmin redo, it still is a chunk of cash

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Raptor05121 said:

Bob, are you fully 2020 ADS-B out with that setup?

Yes. I have been since installation in 2012. More importantly, I have "free" traffic and weather displayed on the 750.

[Bob_Belville]

9 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I went with an Aspen, a Lynx 9000, jpi, still have a trusty 430W that may be upgraded to an Avidyne 440 now that they have a fantastic interface with the IPAD to give a huge screen and plug and play with the existing 430w. All in, much cheaper than the All Garmin solution, and  less annual "vig" to pay. They all play nice together (well, waiting on the Avidyne/Lynx piece prior to Avidyne, but that should happen soon per my sources, right Simpson?) Has a few extra features also, like metars, wx and traffic displayed on the touch screen xponder in addition to the IPAD, GNS, Aspen. While it may be cheaper than the 70+K Garmin redo, it still is a chunk of cash

Mine was "just" 50 AMU installed for new panel, GTN 750, GDX 88, Aspen, JPI EDM 930, Garmin xponder, Garmin audio panel. (I had the Stec50, Stormscope, and kept the #2 nav/com.)

[mike_elliott]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Mine was "just" 50 AMU installed for new panel, GTN 750, GDX 88, Aspen, JPI EDM 930, Garmin xponder, Garmin audio panel. (I had the Stec50, Stormscope, and kept the #2 nav/com.)

And Bob, it is indeed a nice panel as is Dons. When I flew with you it was apparent you knew how to use it well also. Do you know how much  Don Kaye$ wa$, even with all the rebate$? I know at least 3 months downtime was thrown in, along with some hefty annual $ubscription$ for the GTN stuff.

I have < 20K in the Aspen and Lynx, with SV and AOA, the 430w and JPI were from a previous time, the IPAD mini is pocket lint by comparison. I expect about 6K net to go to the Avidyne, and with the app to make the IPAD a nice large screen on the yoke, that would be sweet.

At some point, a G3/G5 may become available to us "certified" types if the men behind the curtain go off break long enough to adhere to the congressional order to add further redundancy. About then, a new panel layout might be in order

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

And Bob, it is indeed a nice panel as is Dons. When I flew with you it was apparent you knew how to use it well also. Do you know how much  Don Kaye$ wa$, even with all the rebate$? I know at least 3 months downtime was thrown in, along with some hefty annual $ubscription$ for the GTN stuff.

I have < 20K in the Aspen and Lynx, with SV and AOA, the 430w and JPI were from a previous time, the IPAD mini is pocket lint by comparison. I expect about 6K net to go to the Avidyne, and with the app to make the IPAD a nice large screen on the yoke, that would be sweet.

At some point, a G3/G5 may become available to us "certified" types if the men behind the curtain go off break long enough to adhere to the congressional order to add further redundancy. About then, a new panel layout might be in order

Based on the pictures I saw of Don's panel, giving up the first born son, followed by the second born son, followed by three generations of future sons would probably cover it.

[Marauder]

And by the way Mike, I'm with you on the approach on equipping. Just having an iPad in the cockpit is light years ahead of what I flew with in the 1990s.

[Bob - S50]

Pritch

Something to consider.  If by RNAV you mean KNS80, you might consider keeping it and the KY197 instead of the KX165.  The KNS80 gives you a backup VOR/LOC/GS + DME.  That came in handy for us a couple weeks ago.  We flew the LDA-A into Vancouver, WA (VUO).  Not in the database for our GTN650.  That's because it uses the localizer at PDX and Garmin was allowed to either use that navaid at PDX or at VUO.  They chose PDX.  So, without the KNS80 we would have either needed to cross tune VOR's and check radials for stepdowns or use the DME to identify fixes.  It was nice having the DME.  It's also nice tuning two radios to the ILS for a crosscheck when flying an ILS.

We have the GTN650.  Not as nice as the 750, but cheaper.  Works for us.  Most of my screen touching is done on the ground.  In the air it still isn't too bad because you can rest a couple fingers on the ledge provided to steady your index finger.  I use the knobs to change frequencies.  When I'm operating single pilot and need to program the box, I let George (AP) fly.  Heck, I usually let George fly most of the time in cruise anyway.  Remember PPPPP (prior planning prevents poor performance).  Do most of your programming on the ground including the approach you expect or will ask for.

Since they will be ripping your panel apart anyway, you might consider the Garmin GTX345 instead of the KT74/TT31.  A couple thousand more but you'll get the benefit of ADS-B in.  I really like the idea of seeing where most of the traffic is around me.  Plus, the install might actually be cheaper than the KT74/TT31 because you don't need to buy and install a speed switch.

[Bob_Belville]

39 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

And Bob, it is indeed a nice panel as is Dons. When I flew with you it was apparent you knew how to use it well also. Do you know how much  Don Kaye$ wa$, even with all the rebate$? I know at least 3 months downtime was thrown in, along with some hefty annual $ubscription$ for the GTN stuff.

I have not seen Don give an actual total for his panel. But it pleases him and he can afford it so it is his business. 

Yeah, Garmin subscriptions are a real factor, over $1000 per year for my 750 and a 696. But I do not like distractions when I'm single pilot IFR. No Epads, no paper to wrestle. Current approach plates on both the 750 and the 696 means I never have to scramble for info. Workloads can get you hurt.

As I've mentioned before here, I put about 2500 hours on my first E. Many flights in hard ifr, approaches to minimums with ADF, DME, RNAV, VLOC, Jepp low altitude enroutes and 6-2" binders of Jepp plates. I've got the TShirt, the cap, the belt buckle, and the tattoo... nothing to prove this time around.  

[mike_elliott]

39 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

And Bob, it is indeed a nice panel as is Dons. When I flew with you it was apparent you knew how to use it well also. Do you know how much  Don Kaye$ wa$, even with all the rebate$? I know at least 3 months downtime was thrown in, along with some hefty annual $ubscription$ for the GTN stuff.

I have not seen Don give an actual total for his panel. But it pleases him and he can afford it so it is his business. 

Yeah, Garmin subscriptions are a real factor, over $1000 per year for my 750 and a 696. But I do not like distractions when I'm single pilot IFR. No Epads, no paper to wrestle. Current approach plates on both the 750 and the 696 means I never have to scramble for info. Workloads can get you hurt.

As I've mentioned before here, I put about 2500 hours on my first E. Many flights in hard ifr, approaches to minimums with ADF, DME, RNAV, VLOC, Jepp low altitude enroutes and 6-2" binders of Jepp plates. I've got the TShirt, the cap, the belt buckle, and the tattoo... nothing to prove this time around.  

Agreed, the IPAD apps really reduce the paper workload along with all the other bennies we all know of. No distractions at all using an IPAD mini on the yoke, no messing with different pages on a gps etc. I wasn't asking about Don's price to be disparaging about it, just curious what a complete Garmin solution costs, realizing that was a couple of years ago now and surely it has come down some today. With what the G3 can do, it will be nice to see what Garmin comes up with after the part 123 re-write. John Young says "soooooooonnn"

[Godfather]

3 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Don's price to be disparaging about it, just curious what a complete Garmin solution costs, realizing that was a couple of years ago now and surely it has come down some today. With what the G3 can do, it will be nice to see what Garmin comes up with after the part 123 re-write.

Not sure why Garmin is getting a bad rap for initial or subscription cost...

Looking at the exact same source (Jeppesen) the update cost is the same price for the ifd540 vs the gtn 750 at $480 (nav data lower 48 IFR).  The 530w data is only $40 cheaper.  The only reason the subscription service is more expensive via the fly garmin website is it provides charts and updates all garmin devices for one price (g500, 650, 750, etc).

Total installed OTD price (the only price that really matters) can fluctuate dramatically depending on a lot of factors.  Many individuals prepurchased the IFD440 units for $8500 ... Some individuals / shops are getting $8k for a 15 year old 430w!