Landing Flaps

[Yetti]

How much flaps are in when you touch down?

[Oldguy]

How about "Depends on conditions"? Pretty much full on calmer days and less with x-winds.

[201er]

Always full flaps for landing. Maximum drag, maximum lift, minimum speed. Even with gear down and full flaps, the Mooney comes down nothing like a skyhawk or arrow. Need to throw in everything you got to get it to slow down.

[Andy95W]

Full flaps unless I want to do a touch and go or if I'm landing on greater than 5000' and have to go all the way to the end.

Some people like partial flaps for crosswinds.  I never understood that.  If you need more rudder authority, fly faster down final and in the flare.  With full flaps the wing will stop flying, with partial flaps it has a greater tendency to balloon if you catch a gust.

Having said all that, when I bought my first Mooney 25 years ago with only 150 hours, the only way I could land it consistently was with partial flaps or no flaps.  I'm glad I got better but it took awhile.

[201er]

Just now, N1395W said:

Having said all that, when I bought my first Mooney 25 years ago with only 150 hours, the only way I could land it consistently was with partial flaps or no flaps.  I'm glad I got better but it took awhile.

Why is it that beginners think it's easier to land without flaps (or partial)?

[Andy95W]

Just now, 201er said:

Why is it that beginners think it's easier to land without flaps (or partial)?

Not sure, and for myself it was a long time ago.  It seems like with the Mooney wing, which seems to love to float, if you have enough runway it's easier to let the airplane float in ground effect halfway down the runway.  Poor technique, but a very soft touchdown.  Maybe partial flaps extends the transition between flare and touchdown, while full flaps makes it shorter and more difficult?

[Zwaustin]

Most of the time full flaps on my K model.

[TTaylor]

When I flew a 63 C model with pump flaps, I often used partial flaps.  With the 75 F with electric flaps full flaps works best.  Depends on the air frame.

[gsengle]

FULL. Our flaps are relatively small anyway. (Long body)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Why is it that beginners think it's easier to land without flaps (or partial)?

Because the extra speed gives a little more control?

i think the flare is a little flatter, maybe a more comfortable sight picture?

 

[DXB]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

Why is it that beginners think it's easier to land without flaps (or partial)?

 

21 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Because the extra speed gives a little more control?

i think the flare is a little flatter, maybe a more comfortable sight picture?

 

I think this is correct.   On my third or fourth landing ever during transition to my C, I forgot to put down the tab that makes the flaps stay down after you pump.  I noticed no difference in speed management on final to tip me off to my  oversight.  I then had what felt like a flawless greaser of a touchdown just past the numbers, precisely on center line, out of what seemed like a flatter flare.

 I looked at my instructor, expecting applause and for him to sign me off immediately.  He just said "um...you forgot the flaps."  This taught me that the flaps don't really do that much in my plane to help slow down relative to my trainer.  My next several landings with flaps were not nearly as good.  The thing does feel more precise to me with no flaps in the flare, I imagine because you never get down into the speed range where the controls get really sloppy before touchdown.   But the negative trade off is a higher touchdown speed and less margin to get too slow accidentally on final, and I now always use full.

[ArtVandelay]

Total flap area is 17.98 sq ft, in the full down position let's say they provide the equivalent to a 6 sq ft flat plate...compare that to the entire M20J has the equivalent flat plate area of 2.81.  Food for thought for those who don't use full flaps.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

Why is it that beginners think it's easier to land without flaps (or partial)?

Because they tend to fly approaches too fast and landing without flaps reduces the huge chasm between the speed they cross the numbers and the speed the plane actually stops flying.

BTW: try descending power off at 1.1Vso sometime. I think you'll be impressed if not uncomfortable with the rate and angle of descent.. 

[markejackson02]

I tend to agree that people come in way too quickly.  Flying at 75-80 mph on short final made me uncomfortable at first.  Now i only use partial flaps if there is a pretty strong crosswind with gusts.

 

[gsxrpilot]

It depends... Always and Never are two words I don't really associate with aviation.

I'm very comfortable landing my C model and actually think it's as easy to land well, as any plane I've ever flown. Or it might just have something to do with lots of practice and flying the same plane every week.

I can land my C just as easily with any flap setting from none to full. I'd be willing to take anyone along for a ride, and several on this board have ridden with me, and demonstrate proper landing technique and you get to choose the flap setting. It won't make a difference to me.

BTW... I do a lot of formation work with the Mooney Caravan group and the SOP when landing in formation is no flaps.

[Yetti]

The difference between full and half does not seem to be that large.  It also seems that you would have more trim in with full flaps making a go around a bit harder to deal with. If you are getting the stall horn with to go off with half flaps are you slow enough to land? Still making the 2000 foot turn off of course.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Is it just me or is somebody pretty full of himself?

Goody for you...

[Guest]

I landed both of my E models with full flap every time, same with brand P and my RV4.  Slower touch down speeds in full control.

Clarence

[DAVIDWH]

The bounces will be higher with full flaps. With our longer runways, partial

flaps with a little extra airspeed, more control and Louder squeaks. 

I think a lot is just personal preference. For me, its gear down, 1/2 flaps and for a little extra stability, speed brakes deployed. 

I fully understand that gear up approaches decrease landing roll significantly for those shorter runways. Again, personnel preference.

best

[Hank]

As shown in my Owners Manual below, I put in Takeoff Flaps on downwind, drop gear, and adjust flaps on final as required to reach my intended pointoif landing. Often the trim is right at the Takeoff mark when I park.

In my several landings in an F, the plane handled much better with Full Flaps on final. But that flap lever had in,yo three selections, Up, Takeoff and Land. Mine in my C are electric, too, and infintely variable--they move as long as I hold the switch down.

So I have to say, "it depends." Flaps are just another flight control, to be used as required to make the plane do what you as the pilot want it to do.

[201er]

Since I like to keep as much reserve energy as practical until I no longer need it for sure, a full flap steep approach is necessary. I fly out of a very urban airport and often into fairly short fields so the steep approach with full flaps is ideal.

But even with a very long runway, a lower energy touchdown with full flaps will surely save the tires, pucks, and brakes?

Edited April 1, 2016 by 201er

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, Yetti said:

The difference between full and half does not seem to be that large.  It also seems that you would have more trim in with full flaps making a go around a bit harder to deal with. If you are getting the stall horn with to go off with half flaps are you slow enough to land? Still making the 2000 foot turn off of course.

The difference between 0 and full flap stall is about 8mph. That may not seem like a huge difference, but it is significant. The significance of flap position is even more pronounced in ground effect. Recall that stall speeds decrease in ground effect (even more so in a Mooney), the difference in touchdow when crossing the numbers flaps up vs flaps down at 85mph (not good) will be significant (1000'+) unless you "fly" it on. When I first started flying the Mooney, I thought I had mastered the greaser until my instructor pulled the yoke aft on me while we were on roll out. We had enough energy to balloon, flare and land again. This was an excellent illustration of the difference between landing a plane and flying it down the runway with the wheels on the ground.

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

As shown in my Owners Manual below, I put in Takeoff Flaps on downwind, drop gear, and adjust flaps on final as required to reach my intended pointoif landing. Often the trim is right at the Takeoff mark when I park.

In my several landings in an F, the plane handled much better with Full Flaps on final. But that flap lever had in,yo three selections, Up, Takeoff and Land. Mine in my C are electric, too, and infintely variable--they move as long as I hold the switch down.

So I have to say, "it depends." Flaps are just another flight control, to be used as required to make the plane do what you as the pilot want it to do.

I almost always land full flaps. In a strong cross wind I'll land no flaps, but it's rare. Visibility is much better on final with the flaps out. 

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I almost always land full flaps. In a strong cross wind I'll land no flaps, but it's rare. Visibility is much better on final with the flaps out. 

So it seems that you are saying you have more control with no flaps? Less chance of a gust doing something you are not expecting?  In the spring in Texas around the coast it is gusty with cross winds almost all spring.  So you would be landing no flaps most of the time.  July and August would be the two calmer months of the year

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

The difference between 0 and full flap stall is about 8mph. That may not seem like a huge difference, but it is significant. The significance of flap position is even more pronounced in ground effect. Recall that stall speeds decrease in ground effect (even more so in a Mooney), the difference in touchdow when crossing the numbers flaps up vs flaps down at 85mph (not good) will be significant (1000'+) unless you "fly" it on. When I first start flying the Mooney, I thought I had mastered the greaser until my instructor pulled the yoke aft on while we were on roll out. We had enough energy to balloon, flare and land again. This was an excellent illustration of the difference between landing a plane and flying it down the runway with the wheels on the ground.

I was referring to the difference between half flaps and full flaps which is about 2-3 mph

Edited April 1, 2016 by Yetti