What should i get?

[Yetti]

I think 210s are one of the cooler planes

[carusoam]

Solo flight is cool!

The first few aren't very solo.  Your CFI is on the ground with a radio.  The weather limitations are usually set in stone by the flight instructor, school or the insurance company.  Getting approved for each flight may be required.  The long cross-country will be similar. The leash slowly gets longer and longer...

When it comes to flying with an instructor in crummy or windy weather...  They usually say no because the ability to learn in those conditions is pretty limited.  Especially if you find you get airsick in the first 15 minutes.  Blowing chow, neatly in a fancy plane takes some practice.  Recovery from feeling ill can take all day.  Learning to fly in bumpy weather is a good lesson.  It is probably not part of the syllabus anywhere, but it is good experience to get through.  There are a few things you can do to avoid or minimize the chances of getting sick.

Training is pretty fun.  The part about being human and going through the training allows you to find out some pretty weird/funny things about yourself an your other pilot friends.

Ask your flight instructor about his take on training in crummy weather.  He may be trying to save you some money.  I generally went flying on some days I should have stayed home.  I didn't achieve the the skills I could have on a calmer day.  Holding altitudes and bank angles is a challenge when bumping around and encountering up and down drafts....

One of the really cool things about some glass panels...  You can select the amount of information that is displayed.  Keep it simple for flight training and demonstrating your instrument scan. Add all the additional details in a stepwise fashion.

One of the really cool things about steam gauges is all the data they give is important to know.  Very little data overload.  If there is something there you don't understand, you need to go learn it.

With experience, your brain will be looking for data the eyes will search until it is found.  Experience frees you up to do this efficiently and quickly. The brain and eyes working as a team.

short on experience, your brain can get loaded up trying to find the data amongst the displays.  Time goes by.  Your instructor will tell you 'don't fixate' on the instruments...  That's the hint they typically use.

Then there is so much data your eyes do a nice job of busily scanning, but your brain can't keep up with the information that is coming in... Like Doing a GUMPS check out loud is good, failing to actually check all the steps is brain mess-up.

For most people, that want to be successful in flying, it may take some practice.  There are always going to be some people that have difficulty watching down the road and scanning the speedometer at the same time.  Not everybody gets issued the same cognitive speed chip in their head.

The next thing you may bump into is something called cognitive overload.  You get this by trying to take on too much training at one time.  If your instructor has been setting up one hour or an hour and a half for each lesson, try going to two hours.  The brain gets tired and it's skills fade.  Often the brain doesn't recognize It gets tired.  The CFI may be trying to save you money based on his previous student's experience.

When you have extra flight training money, let your CFI know you don't mind spending it to see how well your brain can handle cognitive overload and brain fade, while your body fights airsickness on a windy day.  Bumpy days are known to tire people out at a higher rate than nice smooth traveling days.

Often the CFI will save you the money of doing that second hour.  A tired brain doesn't function very well.

After that, You may get some of the best sleep you have had in a while...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Samurai Husky]

" The first few aren't very solo.  Your CFI is on the ground with a radio "

Awwwwwww;

But in honestly i dont think i would have it any other way. Give me another 10-20 hours and we'll see if i feel the same way

" When it comes to flying with an instructor in crummy or windy weather...  They usually say no because the ability to learn in those conditions is pretty limited.  Especially if find you get airsick in the first 15 minutes"

Who are you and where have you been watching me from? LOL

The first flight lesson was canceled twice, on the 3rd time it was a game time decision and I said lets go for it. Needless to say i lasted about 30 minutes before i said we had to go back. Once we landed, he said that was the first time he ever took someone up in weather like that. 

From a student perspective, it was a very good learning lesson.  Never flew a plane, hell never been in a plane that size; Strong cross winds of 15g35kts, 3000ft ceiling, rain moving into the area and as soon as we were 500 ft off the ground 'you have the controls'; I was like 'what?!' i thought we were just going up for a test flight, i wasnt expecting to drive.

All i can remember is trying to keep the plane within a 1000ft of what he asked as we were blown left/right up/down and all around. I now have TUMS and non-drozy Dramamine in my flight bag  Good times! So when people here say 'respect weather'; It was imprinted early on what bad weather could be like, and from his perspective, it wasn't that bad!

" short on experience, your brain can get loaded up trying to find the data among the displays "

For the data overload, I ran into that the last time; Not because I was tired, but because its was just a lot to take in. We did a engine out scenario at 4500 ft, power to idle; I was told to 'land'; The spot we chose was a small private airstrip (note, we didnt actually land, we just got into position to land); So losing altitude by s turning back and forth, while not losing sight of the runway, while worrying about terrain (its hilly where we go) while worrying about stalling, and watching airspeed, altitude and banking; Oh, did i also mention we pulled the fuses on all of the PFD's and MFD? the only thing we kept on was flightwatch(coms and transponder) for safety reasons, so back to the early days of flying; Then to have someone be saying, TO STEEP, TO SHALLOW, NOSE UP, NOSE DOWN, WATCH YOUR SPEED, WHERES THE AIRPORT, WHERES TRAFFIC, NOSE DOWN! LOL; repeat those phrases in a random pattern and you get the idea! 

Yep,, if that was real life, i would be dead. But in all honesty, Man has patients of a saint; i would have been crawling out of my seat if our positions were reversed. 

 But ITS ALL WORTH IT! (see picture)

 

 

[Hank]

Amen, brother! I made a 45-minute trip last weekend, then came home. Bumpy climbout, bumpy after descent, all the way to the ramp. Leaving to come home, bump climbout and low-level,scooting away from under the Bravo before climbing timsmooth air for about 20 minutes, followed by the bumpiest descent I've ever made, bumpy from 8500 all the way to the runway at 327 msl.

The sky was clear as a bell, Runway 31, nearby winds were 340@9G24. I slept very well that night, after my lunchtime flight.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I've been on MooneySpace for years and this is by far the most animated thread I've seen. When Anthony is speaking in paragraphs and not bullets we know we've crossed some kind of line. Lol. 

Husky, you're a great sport. When I was 35 back in 1999 I bought my first plane, a 1980 Piper Archer II. I've been fortunate in life and business to move a bit beyond that in the last 17 years. You'll know when you're ready. Have fun and fly safe. 

[Samurai Husky]

Thats because i have no life outside of work and flying and im grounded until the weather permits

And gosh darnit, people like me! (SNL for those that didnt get the reference); 

So I can officially remove the P210N from the running; I talked with some (2) people and they said the pressurization implementation on it was horrible. So much so that they sold theirs. They also said that parts for the system were 'gold plated' and pray you never crack a windshield. Where common themes. 

I think i was talked out of 'p' because of it being a short body and slightly less room; Is the 'F' the same size as a 'P'? because the flight club as a 'F' as well.

I have a flight lesson tomorrow, so i am hoping to also check out the Acclaim that the club has, even if i just sit in it with a tape measure. This will give me an idea of how tight of a fit it will be.

While i know this is a Mooney forum; Others have suggested Pipers; The Saratoga and Mailbu were 2 that came up; I will do more research into those; If anyone has hands on experience with them let me know. I checked with the flight club and they only have Archers. 

The common theme I am starting to see is that there are no bad planes? I thought it would be more like cars where you have obvious flops or manufactures that you want to stay away from. But with all of the suggestions coming in it seems like at least the big ones Mooney, Piper, Cessna are all getting recommendations (except beechcraft surprisingly); 

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[glafaille]

A Beechcraft A-36 is an awesome plane, easy to fly, speedy and comfortable.  Big wide doors for loading big dogs or whatever else.  But I think you nixed that idea a while back because you didn't want a 6 seater.  They are certainly worth checking out.

[Godfather]

4 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

So I can officially remove the P210N from the running; I talked with some (2) people and they said the pressurization implementation on it was horrible. So much so that they sold theirs. They also said that parts for the system were 'gold plated'...

-I was trying to elude to that earlier...it can be painful to drop 10-20k on an annual and have the hull value remain the same.

I have a flight lesson tomorrow, so i am hoping to also check out the Acclaim that the club has, even if i just sit in it with a tape measure. This will give me an idea of how tight of a fit it will be.

-great idea!  Can the dogs fit through the baggage door (meaning you lift them in) or do they need to use the other door? Could your instructor take you up in the acclaim (basically the same size as the bravo, eagle, and ovation)?

The common theme I am starting to see is that there are no bad planes? I thought it would be more like cars where you have obvious flops or manufactures that you want to stay away from. 

-some planes are very expensive to maintain.  Others are increasingly difficult to obtain inexpensive insurance.  Pilots take a lot of setbacks in stride.  For the most part we are problem solvers not complainers.  

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

33 minutes ago, glafaille said:

A Beechcraft A-36 is an awesome plane, easy to fly, speedy and comfortable.  Big wide doors for loading big dogs or whatever else.  But I think you nixed that idea a while back because you didn't want a 6 seater.  They are certainly worth checking out.

So a little back story on that; The A36 is what the Twin Cessna club suggested when they talked me out of a twin. Funny how history has repeated itself, dont worry everyone, i have them exactly as much as a hard time as i have given all of you

When i looked into the 36, i couldn't justify paying twin money for a single that was slower (165knt) and had limited range. A A36 i would need tip tanks because they top out at 700nm and without running strict LOP i wouldnt make my PHX run; I would need to go up to the 'g' to get in that 900nm range and 'g' is quite a bit more.

When i saw that i started to look at the Mooney because the 'k' was much cheaper, faster and i thought would be big enough, then i saw the speed of the rocket and the price and well, you know the rest. 

What everyone has me looking at now is the Malibu. I never even considered it because i thought Piper had gone under and really no one mentioned them until now, but i guess what plane company hasnt had a financial 'reorganization' or 2. But is the Malibu too much plane for a new person to learn on? Especially this early on?  I dont want to end up on the same path i was on with the Rocket; Though to be honest, i would have to look really hard at if i can afford the acquisition on it. They are considerably more expensive upfront then even a twin, they are cheaper to maintain and from what i have read, the pressurization is one of the best in all of GA.

 

@Godfather

Im sure he can take me up in one, but i think i would end up getting a lesson on how much better the Cirrus is.  I already went through this when i first asked him about the mooney. Only some people will get this reference, but to me Cirrus is = to Apple and Apple fans are very defensive over their products. Apple could grind up kittens to make the screen and Apple fans will only focus on how clear the picture is. It will be a very clear picture, the best ever made... of kittens. Can you tell i work in IT?

 

[bradp]

Does the flying club you're in have a Mooney F model?  That would be my staring place to see if you and M are meant to be.  Finish your training in the Cirrus or what not.  Then before committing to anything, find a flying club with a host of aircraft that would be considered suitable for your mission.  If the dogs are the priority, and you are considering a Mooney as your almost-forever plane, I would hesitate and maybe consider another model with side access.  The dogs will be getting older.  They aren't light.  They will need to be carried onto the wing. I've almost bit it a couple of times carrying my 12 year old 50-lb pup off the wing.  He's terrified of getting on and off then wing.  Hates it.  Consider something with a barn door.  Maybe a Cherokee six, a 206/210, or an A-36 would be better suited for hauling stuff / valuable cargo.  

 

One of the nice thing about brand C- and brand P- is that they all fly pretty much the same as a function of the airfoil (same with brand M).  Pipers and Cessnae are very forgiving planes based on their airfoil design.  Mooney wings are laminar and less forgiving in a cross controlled approach to stall (wing drop, etc).  They are not hard to fly, but they are challenging.  

 

Many people here spend a great deal of time in C172s  and they are great planes and give you valuable training experience (as has been posted here).  My opinion is when you can fly a 172 / other trainer nearly perfectly in its entire envelope in varying conditions essentially with your eyes closed are you ready to move up.  The flying mechanics become second nature and you get into using 97% of your cognition to think about what you will do (assess, plan, plan, reassess) rather than how to do it.    The reason is that things "happen faster" in a high performance and you need to process multiple data streams faster than you do in a slower aircraft.  The I'll slow it down argument doesn't hold because the times you need to think and move fastest and most precisely are critical phases when you are likely pushing the throttle forward - think go around in adverse conditions  - those are the times you have no ability to control how fast / slow things happen in the aircraft.  

 

Aptitude and eagerness matter in training for aviation as anything else.  You will learn some tools for judgement but exercise of judgement will come with time.  That is experience- wisdom gained from exercise of judgement.  Take your time with this.  Fly, gain experience, make measured decisions.  

 

You can't predict your needs/ situation in 3-years etc.  You may have a significant other and fur children may be competing with real ones.   Who knows.   Consider a starter plane and keep some of the money burning a hole in the pocket in reserve.  Get an IR, consider Com or MEL.   Get high quality training.  The IR will teach you that your survival most often depends on making sound go/no go decisions and gives you an incredibly respect for the weather.  Slowly and conservatively expand your comfort zone as your experience level increases in a commensurate fashion.   Then in a few years and after a bunch of hours think about whether you want that pressurized twin after you've flown the crap out of a starter plane  

 

Finally, that you're an IT guy makes me want to tell you to learn on steam first and then consider glass.  Otherwise you'll never learn steam properly and when the glass fails, that's what you'll be left with.  

 

Don't mean to sound harsh but was kept up a good bit of the night by this sobering news from  our fellow aviators at BT (a very proficient and well respected member of the aviation community).

www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=121279

[Yetti]

For my solo I gave my flight instructor some ping pong paddles painted orange like LSO paddles and the LSO hand  cheat sheet and told him to stand at the end of the runway. :-)

Edited March 31, 2016 by Yetti

[MyNameIsNobody]

Yes.  I can definitely tell you work in IT...

[ArtVandelay]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

For my solo I gave my flight instructor some ping pong paddles painted orange like LSO paddles and the LSO hand  cheat sheet and told him to stand at the end of the runway. :-)

I'd get confused, the left wing too low looks like right wing too low...this would not be good for me.

[cnoe]

And if it's alright with y'all, I think I'll keep my "hook" UP regardless of what the paddle man signals.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Samurai Husky]

Well, the good news is that i think i found the perfect plane for the mission. The other good news is that i can't afford it right now (well i could but at a risk im not willing to take). Which gives me a year or more to focus on training. Yea, the plane wont be there a year from now, but thats not the point. The point is that i know it exists, about how much they run and what the path is to get there. What i was struggling with was how wide the range is for planes. The same plane can have a 500k swing in price, so it was hard getting my head around actual costs. 

I am still leaning towards the Mooney O2 for that 1-2-3yr gap as it meets more of the mission and if something happens and the plane market and prices crash, its something i can keep using without worry. this of course is pending on the dogs fitting which i should know today once i look at the Acclaim and 'F'. 

However, based on the overwhelming feed back, I have opened up to a cessna, something lower key like a 210L; something cheap enough where i can put in a Aspin or G500; still be able to get from here to phonix in 1 go. I can pull out the center seats and have plenty of room for animals. It's aslo something i can probably buy and fly day 1. Something kinda like this http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1401457/1975-cessna-210l or this http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1416129/1975-cessna-turbo-210l (but not so sure how to import something from canada or if its worth the effort/expense) where the cost isnt to bad and should be able to get most my money back when i am ready to move on. If others have suggestions then i would be happy to look at them.

I did more flight planning from here to Phx, there really are no spots where i have to be above 10kft. Though i would want to just to avoid a bunch of airspace that tops at exactly 10k (there are 3 airports to fly over with those limits); So really only 120nm or so miles at 11000 or 12000 should be enough to get through it and i can drop back down to 8500; In the medium term, Tahoe and Yosemite are probably as high as i will go; so nothing 'over' the Serria's or other mountain ranges. 

Again, thanks everyone; I think we are nearing the end of the thread!

 

[carusoam]

Sam,

Your dogs would have to weigh two hundred pounds each to be a problem for an O.  After that, check the WnB to make sure everything stays in line when you fold the rear seats down flat.  It's like a Tahoe back there.  You may not end up filling the whole 100 gallons in this case...

I can't fill all four seats with humans and fill tanks the whole way...  Those tanks are huge...

How do you keep a pair of 200 pound dogs from roaming around the cabin while on approach or in the pattern?

You are looking more like you may be staying at MS for a while.

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

Samurai-

Take a look at the Cessna 182RG Turbo.  I think it has some advantages over the 210.  Lycoming engine with 2000 hr TBO for one, and both the turbo and gear system are reported to be very reliable after 1979.  The strut braced Cessna wings seem to have fewer maintenance issues than the non-strut braced wings.  It's just a bit smaller than the C210.

 

Here's one: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1394429/1982-cessna-turbo-r182rg-skylane

[sailon]

Find an instructor who loves windy weather!  Mine did, they are out there.  Go up with the CFI in gusty crosswinds when the CFI feels you are ready.  Best investment in your training you can make, and it is lots of fun!  .

[Samurai Husky]

Its a concern that others brought up; as far as weight shift. They are 65lbs each, i was thinking of ether leaving the seats up and using those car seat-belt tethers, or putting the seats down and using a harness and leash attached to the seats to limit their mobility. My main concern is that they dont try to ride shotgun in flight. Again, I will need to verify what it actually looks like.

I also have to be smart enough to not force the plane down. I think this will come with training, but if i feel the weight shift to much, then go around and reset. I might try practicing with something like a big medicine ball, that way i can simulate the weight rolling around in the back area on a fake approach and see how bad it is with out risking anything. Kinda like something like this: http://www.performbetter.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product2_10151_10751_1005453_-1_1000166_1000165_1000165_ProductDisplayErrorView?utm_source=google%2Bproduct%2Bad&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=medicine%2Bballs

I dont know if thats a good idea, but its something i just thought up on the fly. When we are talking about a 200k purchase; i think that $200-$400 is worth the expense to try it out. Though I would probably try it out in the rental! 

LOL i feel  really sorry for the guy with a private strip, everyone uses his house to practice on. He probably had to sound proof his house because of all the planes flying over head. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Meadowlark+Field/@37.6594032,-121.6960195,3044m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fde424cfdb129:0x37cdb158d8ed56a0!6m1!1e1?hl=en I might send him a bottle of wine once im done training

@glafaille

Yea, i looked that the spec's of every Cessna made; The 182 only has a 500nm range at 88% power (from what i have found). So i would be forced to stop in or around LA; Unless i run at 45% power, but then i am only doing about 100knts; If i were in a headwind, i could be going no faster than a car.... At least that is what i have found; The internet isnt very good of giving the spec's of specific models, more so just the newest model. I can look at it more.

[glafaille]

samurai-

i believe you are mistaken.  The C182RG Turbo (retractable gear), has a fuel capacity of 88 gallons, fuel burn is around 12 gallons per hour and speed about 160 to 170 knots depending on altitude.  Range therefore is about 1000 nautical miles.  Useful load is about 1200 lbs, plenty for full fuel and dogs or pax.

The big thing is that it is the only C182 with the Lycoming engine which is known for it's reliability, 2000 hr TBO and it usually makes it!

[Samurai Husky]

10 minutes ago, glafaille said:

samurai-

i believe you are mistaken.  The C182RG Turbo (retractable gear), has a fuel capacity of 88 gallons, fuel burn is around 12 gallons per hour and speed about 160 to 170 knots depending on altitude.  Range therefore is about 1000 nautical miles.  Useful load is about 1200 lbs, plenty for full fuel and dogs or pax.

The big thing is that it is the only C182 with the Lycoming engine which is known for it's reliability, 2000 hr TBO and it usually makes it!

I was basing my information off of this website: 

http://www.flightline.co.nz/cessna_aircraft%2Fcessnaturbo182.asp

Which i now realize is a T182T; but seems to be listing the same engine and fuel load out. I will ask around; If you think that its much better than a 210L then i will take a look; I think there are 4 at the flyinig club that i can look at. Though for some reason they rent at a ungodly rate, all over $200/hr wet; the G1000 is at $280/hr!

Thats whats nice about this flying club; Its like a giant used car lot! 47 planes to choose from  (though half are 172s )

 

[carusoam]

Practicing with random changes of WnB is not very logical.  When the balance departs the flight envelope.  The plane may be departing controlled flight shortly afterwards.  Trying to call a husky out from the far back reaches of the cockpit  may not work.  Some dead weight that has slid to the back, won't be coming forwards.  Tales are not powerful enough to lift things beyond the WnB envelope.  In this case a stall happens in an unrecoverable fashion.

This is something you use calculations for.  An app like WnB can work pretty well, so can a spread sheet.

It's that serious.

Next challenge... Weight vs. OAT vs. length of runway. Please, Look up density altitude and how it effects T/O run.

Ask more questions, we'll be here all day...

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

Samurai-

I'm looking for a plane myself and came across a C182RG Turbo near me.  I had previously discounted the C182 for some of the reasons you have mentioned, plus I wasn't too keen on the 1500 hr Continentals and their cylinder problems.  The Lycoming in the C182 is a great engine and has been around a very long time.  They are used primarily in larger Piper aircraft and not normally seen in Cessna(s).

Anyway, when I started to research the plane I found that it is an entirely different beast from an everyday C182.  It is a very much evolved and improved C182.  An amazing aircraft with truly stellar capabilities while maintaining the great handling and easy flying of a C182.  Retracts and a turbo make it very different from other C182 aircraft.

I have family in California and I figure I can fly non-stop to Texas. You can pick up some awesome winds in the high teens.

It sermed to me a perfect machine for your mission, experience level and travelling companions.  Compared to a Mooney the cabin is like a stadium!

The aircraft has so much utility and capability I think it will retain it's value better than most.

By the way, the owner of the local C182RG Turbo reports that his annuals are usually in the $1500 range with an occasional $2000.  The price to overhaul the  Lycoming seems very reasonable also.

[Blackroc]

I was reading this thread yesterday and then saw this one on beechtalk.com today.   A fellow on there is doing his initial training on a G58 and the board seems to be ok with that overall. 

http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=121267&hilit=G58

[glafaille]

Samurai-

Here is something you may have not considered.  

A rule of thumb!!

Ideally you want to clear mountains or a ridge line by 1000 feet for every 10 knots of wind at your altitude plus a safe margin of 1000 to 2000 feet.  So that 8000 ft ridge line may require you to safely cross it at over 12,000 ft if the winds at your altitude are 30 knots.  Plus you will want to be in VFR conditions so you can see the rocks.  IFR flight at 12,000 feet during anytime of the year MAY put you at risk of picking up ice, which is very dangerous, especially in an aircraft with limited altitude capability (non-turbo).

One more thought.  Think of a turbo as a tool that will allow you to take off from higher airports with a good load, and to cross the mountains with a safe margin.  After crossing the mountains you can always descend back to where you feel most comfortable or don't have to suck on O2.  It will still come in handy in the 10,000 to 12,000 ft range as you will be able to push the power up a bit for good speed or pull it back for maximum range.  On a good day in the winter you might be able to ride on some 100 knot tail winds at altitude.