Bad Landing

[Chocks]

Im telling you, it happens everytime. We talk about it and it gets brought up the next day - it seems - here.

Oh and FYI, his strobe is probably not off, the frame rate on the cameras rarely catch the flash. You can see how rarely it happens in the formation videos

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[Hank]

 

 

Im telling you, it happens everytime. We talk about it and it gets brought up the next day - it seems - here.

 

??? 

[carusoam]

Some related thoughts...

1) Transition training for my C included the phrase, 'in a Mooney, you can never get enough trim for landing'  

Setting full up trim helps the pilot set the power properly for landing, by removing one of the variables.

More knowledgable CFIs will probably say... set the trim where it belongs for speed control, and set the power properly for descent rate control. Each day may be different...

Consider putting some stuff in the back, if full up trim is really working for you..?

 

2) Going around with 310 hp... it is not always a good idea to firewall the throttle. Huge gobs of torque are released and gigantic nose-up tendency are a handful.

Powered trim and electric gear are helpful with this challenge.

 

3) it seems to be more of a challenge to hold the nose off with more flaps.

The training from the same questionable source mentioned above....  Smooth landings are easier to achieve using T/O flaps.  Adjust air speed accordingly for the higher stall speed.

 

Full flaps changes the amount of drag and the center of lift moves (aft?) as well.

 

I really like this video.  The nose wheel looks like it is afraid of the center line at first.  It touches few inches left, then up and over, touches again a few inches to the right...

The camera mounted away from the control surfaces makes me feel more comfortable.  Specifically for the landing phase with a forward CG.

Thoughts of a PP, not a CFI or a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Rocket and I both fly C models. I don't know enough about my iPad to highlight this page from my Owners Manual, but read the paragraph under "LANDING," and notice the last  two sentences before the "Warning" about the stall horn. This is what I always do, and it works very well, IFR and VFR. Trim is addressed right after the Warning, too, and it does not mention Full Up.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Hank

[Shadrach]

 

Interesting comment on the full aft trim. I never see full aft trim on landing. Most of the time it is a bar width north of the take-off position.

What are others seeing? Ah, come on, you have to admit it is better than talking about LOP, Timmy or how many women I can fit in my Mooney.

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I see "full aft" often when the tanks are low and no one in the rear seats.

[steingar]

Mooney flaps hardly do anything, they only lower the stall speed about 10mph in my airplane.  But they do change the pitch angle, allows you facile visualization of the runway environment, which is a good thing..

[Shadrach]

31 minutes ago, steingar said:

Mooney flaps hardly do anything, they only lower the stall speed about 10mph in my airplane.  But they do change the pitch angle, allows you facile visualization of the runway environment, which is a good thing..

An M20C at 2575lbs (MGW) in landing configuration stalls at about 49kts.

A Cherokee 180 at 2400lbs (MGW) in landing configuration stalls about 49kts.

Do you wish that the Mooney wing was less docile "flaps up" so that you might feel like the flaps do more?

[Yetti]

hey at least you missed the wires on approach.  On approach is seems like you are over flying trying to keep things straight.  There are no visual indicators for the wind on the video.   even gusty should not need that much piloting.  Maybe crab then kick or slip.    Maybe just caught a gust when you were trying to settle.   I don't think I have landed 35 at 84R.

Also line up a little up wind and then know that you will get blown over to the center line that way you don't have to fight it as much.

 

This was gusty cross wind day at 11R from the left.  It's one of those automatic things that I don't know I do till I watch the video, but I lined up upwind and then micro adjusted to the right before touchdown.  Transition instructor was a F-18 pilot and he was probably in my head giving me crap about landing on the center line.

 

 

[Yetti]

And then here is Columbus the same day where I complexly hose up the first approach and had to pee really bad.

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

Yetti, do you always land with a 20t tailwind?

I also fly an F. If your speed readout is correct, you are way faster than any short or Mid body needs to be even at MGW.  There is absolutely no reason to be doing 120mph+ on base to final, 90mph is more than adequate. It appears that you are crossing the numbers at 90mph+ touching down at ~80mph and then using brakes and tires to scrub the excess energy.  Please take this as constructive criticism. Your fighter jock instructor should have been in your head telling you to slow the hell down, you're crossing the numbers at 1.5Vso. This will bite you one day if you continue.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Shadrach

[Bob_Belville]

On 1/12/2016 at 10:09 AM, Marauder said:

Interesting comment on the full aft trim. I never see full aft trim on landing. Most of the time it is a bar width north of the take-off position.

What are others seeing? Ah, come on, you have to admit it is better than talking about LOP, Timmy or how many women I can fit in my Mooney.

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My short body E may be a little different from your F but I always land full nose up trim, full flaps. At least when the CG is forward with 1 or 2 souls on board. But I am short and I have the seat in the second position from the front for landing and take off. I slide it back 2 or 3 notches in cruise. I also never hear the stall horn in the flare.  

[Marauder]

On 1/12/2016 at 10:09 AM, Marauder said: Interesting comment on the full aft trim. I never see full aft trim on landing. Most of the time it is a bar width north of the take-off position.

What are others seeing? Ah, come on, you have to admit it is better than talking about LOP, Timmy or how many women I can fit in my Mooney.

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My short body E may be a little different from your F but I always land full nose up trim, full flaps. At least when the CG is forward with 1 or 2 souls on board. But I am short and I have the seat in the second position from the front for landing and take off. I slide it back 2 or 3 notches in cruise. I also never hear the stall horn in the flare.  

Bob -- you have autotrim? Another trim anomaly I see if I have AP engaged, I always full nose down trim. You see the same?

P.S. What were you doing in Georgia?

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[donkaye, MCFI]

5 hours ago, Yetti said:

And then here is Columbus the same day where I complexly hose up the first approach and had to pee really bad.

 

 

 

Critique not asked for but--how did you overshoot the first approach by so much? I would guess flying the pattern too close in for the wind.  The approach was so unstabilized that it was a go around from the get go.  Tentative in the go around when, on the overshoot, you should have added full power and gone around, the approach was that bad.  The second approach had the correct slope but it was totally unstabilized by flying final 20 MPH too fast.  The pattern should be flown 100 down wind with approach flaps, 90 on base with full flaps, and 80 on final.  This would give a non rushed approach.  The flare was almost non existent.  You touched down way before the plane was done flying.  You should hear the stall warning just before touchdown.  You applied brakes too early and skidded some.  Also power should have been reduce as the numbers were moving towards you.  Sorry to plug my landing video, but you truly need it, if this is the way you consistently land.  I'm sorry to be so blunt, but these landings really were terrible, and I hope not indicative of the way you fly.

Don Kaye, MCFI

Edited January 14, 2016 by donkaye

[Andy95W]

Full disclosure: photo misappropriated from Peter (PTK)

[Bob_Belville]

5 hours ago, Marauder said:

Bob -- you have autotrim? Another trim anomaly I see if I have AP engaged, I always full nose down trim. You see the same?

P.S. What were you doing in Georgia?

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Chris, I have STEC electric trim but it's not automatic. The STEC50 A/P has only up/down lights that prompt that trim is needed to take pressure off the elevator servo in ALTHLD mode but the trimming has to be done manually. (I think it is important for best cruise speed to trim precisely. I release ALTHLD now and then to observe if the nose comes up or goes down and tweak the trim.) 

No, stable cruise is not all the way nose-down for my E. When I release ALTHLD for descent from cruise I have to crank in some nose down pitch for descent. How do you descend? Hold constant elevator down pressure? Reduce power? Surely not... Your STEC55 has rate of descent select doesn't it? Does it have to hold elevator pressure to maintain? If you release A/P does the nose come up?   

I picked up a church consultant we're working with in Nashville Monday for a meeting here Monday night and took him on to Augusta Tuesday where he needed to be rather than taking him back to Nashville. (We're adding several elders and Mike is doing some training. I will be making several trips to Nashville. You may have noticed I asked about the going rate for renting a plane like ours.)

[Marauder]

5 hours ago, Marauder said: Bob -- you have autotrim? Another trim anomaly I see if I have AP engaged, I always full nose down trim. You see the same?

P.S. What were you doing in Georgia?

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Chris, I have STEC electric trim but it's not automatic. The STEC50 A/P has only up/down lights that prompt that trim is needed to take pressure off the elevator servo in ALTHLD mode but the trimming has to be done manually. (I think it is important for best cruise speed to trim precisely. I release ALTHLD now and then to observe if the nose comes up or goes down and tweak the trim.) 

No, stable cruise is not all the way nose-down for my E. When I release ALTHLD for descent from cruise I have to crank in some nose down pitch for descent. How do you descend? Hold constant elevator down pressure? Reduce power? Surely not... Your STEC55 has rate of descent select doesn't it? Does it have to hold elevator pressure to maintain? If you release A/P does the nose come up?   

I picked up a church consultant we're working with in Nashville Monday for a meeting here Monday night and took him on to Augusta Tuesday where he needed to be rather than taking him back to Nashville. (We're adding several elders and Mike is doing some training. I will be making several trips to Nashville. You may have noticed I asked about the going rate for renting a plane like ours.)

I have the 60-2 unit with automatic electric trim. It is capable of a rate based climb or descent but does so at the cost of airspeed (both positive and negative). So, if I set it for a 500 FPM climb by hitting VSI and holding the up button for a count of 3, the plane will climb at around 500 FPM but the airspeed needed to maintain that will erode as I climb. The opposite being true for descents if I don't manage power I will continue to see an increase in airspeed. This is one of my interests for the DFC90. It offers a true airspeed based climb.

When I reach altitude, I hit the ALT button and the autotrim will wheel in the required trim. If I disconnect it, it will be trimmed pretty close to the correct spot. I just never looked at the trim wheel when it was engaged until a few years ago and noticed it is pretty far nose down in cruise. The same for hand flying. Trim, as you know, is one of those things you do by feel, so I never look at it because I always had trim movement left.

Glad to see one of us is getting out to do some flying! You're living the dream and I'm living the spreadsheets.

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[Yetti]

The pattern should be flown 100 down wind with approach flaps, 90 on base with full flaps, and 80 on final.

Can you practice a power off 180 with that method?

I think 1 of my transition landings had flaps.  The instructor was fine with that

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Yetti

[Bob_Belville]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I have the 60-2 unit with automatic electric trim. It is capable of a rate based climb or descent but does so at the cost of airspeed (both positive and negative). So, if I set it for a 500 FPM climb by hitting VSI and holding the up button for a count of 3, the plane will climb at around 500 FPM but the airspeed needed to maintain that will erode as I climb. The opposite being true for descents if I don't manage power I will continue to see an increase in airspeed. This is one of my interests for the DFC90. It offers a true airspeed based climb.

When I reach altitude, I hit the ALT button and the autotrim will wheel in the required trim. If I disconnect it, it will be trimmed pretty close to the correct spot. I just never looked at the trim wheel when it was engaged until a few years ago and noticed it is pretty far nose down in cruise. The same for hand flying. Trim, as you know, is one of those things you do by feel, so I never look at it because I always had trim movement left.

Glad to see one of us is getting out to do some flying! You're living the dream and I'm living the spreadsheets.

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STEC55 didn't seem right. Your 60-2 is a big time step up. Sorry for the insult. But if the A/P is able to autotrim for a 500 f/min descent istm that there was some down trim left @ cruise. I.e., the indicator might say you're full down but there is still room for more before the screw hits the stop.

I only got in 48 hours last year but intentions are to do much better this year, D.V. Assuming senility holds off a little longer... Oh, and the stock market stops its free fall.  

[Marauder]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said: I have the 60-2 unit with automatic electric trim. It is capable of a rate based climb or descent but does so at the cost of airspeed (both positive and negative). So, if I set it for a 500 FPM climb by hitting VSI and holding the up button for a count of 3, the plane will climb at around 500 FPM but the airspeed needed to maintain that will erode as I climb. The opposite being true for descents if I don't manage power I will continue to see an increase in airspeed. This is one of my interests for the DFC90. It offers a true airspeed based climb.

When I reach altitude, I hit the ALT button and the autotrim will wheel in the required trim. If I disconnect it, it will be trimmed pretty close to the correct spot. I just never looked at the trim wheel when it was engaged until a few years ago and noticed it is pretty far nose down in cruise. The same for hand flying. Trim, as you know, is one of those things you do by feel, so I never look at it because I always had trim movement left.

Glad to see one of us is getting out to do some flying! You're living the dream and I'm living the spreadsheets.

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STEC55 didn't seem right. Your 60-2 is a big time step up. Sorry for the insult. But if the A/P is able to autotrim for a 500 f/min descent istm that there was some down trim left @ cruise. I.e., the indicator might say you're full down but there is still room for more before the screw hits the stop.

I only got in 48 hours last year but intentions are to do much better this year, D.V. Assuming senility holds off a little longer... Oh, and the stock market stops its free fall.  

The 55 actually has more features than the 60-2 but I was told by a couple of avionics shops that the 60-2 does a better job and is more reliable. I've had it since 1998 and it is just downright awesome. When I added GPSS, it got even better.

There is a turn or so left on the trim, but I just thought it was pretty far down.

Thanks for letting me know how much you flew this year. I feel better! I count mine from insurance renewal cycles. With a couple of months to go, I'm sitting at 108 hours. I'll probably end up with around 120. This is down from the last few years, but it sure beats not flying.

You should do some Pilots N Paws flights. NC pilots are always needed.

Fingers crossed on the stock market.

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[ArtVandelay]

The 60-2 fits in the same spot as a 30 or 50, which makes me think upgrade costs would be minimal.

For those with altitude hold, if you are not holding altitude and varying by up to +/- 100', I found if trim is just a bit off prevents this.

[Shadrach]

 

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

The pattern should be flown 100 down wind with approach flaps, 90 on base with full flaps, and 80 on final.

Can you practice a power off 180 with that method?

I think 1 of my transition landings had flaps.  The instructor was fine with that

 

The 180 would depend on the size of the pattern flown, but yes, from abeam the numbers, I can easily make a power off 180 with no wind. However, I don't really think that metric is very useful, especially if that is why your adding so much speed to your pattern and approach. I don't know your instructor and you need not listen to me, but don't be so starstruck over him being a fighter jock that you discount a Mooney specific instructor's (Don Kaye's) opinion. You are way too fast. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

Also,  I don't religiously fly 100, 90, 80. Sometimes I'm faster and sometimes I'm slower depending on field length or if I have a kerosene burner waiting on me or if Skydivers screwed up my descent profile or whatever. Sometimes I fly unstable approaches because I've made a mistake in planning, but there is always a goal that I am shooting for and that goal is 1.2 Vso by short final.  This happened recently when I had picked up another pilot on the way to the last NJ fly-in. I was sitting there looking for traffic and trying to showcase how a draggy old stock F model will scream along at 155KIAS at 1500' LOP  barely breaking 300° on the hottest CHT when I realized that what I thought was our destination airport was actually some other group of structures at what was probably a mall and we were oriented on a what was about a 1.5ml 45° for downwind at ~150KIAS to our intended destination.  I chopped power immediatly and turned DW about .5miles from the runway. Still above gear speed abeam the numbers my I did a steep forward slip from DW to base dropping the gear as I leveled wings on base at 120mph. Another left slip to S-turns down final and we crossed the DT at about 70mph touched down close to the numbers and easily made the turn off at 1000ft.

The point of all this is that stabilized approaches are nice, but sometimes Mother Nature or ATC or your own mistake might cause you to get off track.  One needs to assess immediatly if it's possible to salvage the approach. If not, abort and go around. If so, work towards a goal and reassess constantly. Your approaches while way to fast were all salvageable with drastic measures. I was not surprised by the go around. I was surprised by the speed on the second approach and landing. What's your speed goal for crossing the threshold, do you make any adjustment for weight?

Now back to your scheduled Autopilot thread Hijack.

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[N601RX]

I would maintain best glide of 105 until I turned final and was assured of making the runway.  Then deploy gear, flaps and other maneuvers as necessary to adjust speed and point of touchdown. At our 3000' runway you can pull power at pattern altitude just after the crosswind to downwind turn and make it around with the gear and flaps left up until needed.

[donkaye, MCFI]

3 hours ago, Yetti said:

The pattern should be flown 100 down wind with approach flaps, 90 on base with full flaps, and 80 on final.

Can you practice a power off 180 with that method?

I think 1 of my transition landings had flaps.  The instructor was fine with that

 

The purpose of the 180° power off landing is to demonstrate that the applicant for the Commercial License understands and has the judgement to accurately fly the airplane to a safe landing without power.  This implies the pilot understands how to judiciously bleed off speed so as to arrive at the threshold with just enough lift so as to touch down within 200 feet of a specific touchdown point. Coming over the threshold 20 mph too fast does not accomplish that purpose.

Edited January 14, 2016 by donkaye

[Yetti]

Not sure about putting a lot of stock in the GPS speed from the camera as I normally see 90 on base to final. (v1.4 * 67 = 93)  Watching the video again it looks like there is a lag in speed update.   We should probably have the camera with the ASI in the view.   The first video has a pretty decent downhill for landing.  If you flare too much the runway just keeps getting farther away  As I recall for the "go around" in the second video I was already pretty high and never landed at that airport prior.  I wanted to check out the runway make sure there were no deer on it and check the pavement condition since the approach was hosed.You really can't do that if you are climbing. Could have maybe got a slip to work, but again first time there.    Also did not want to pop up too soon in case there was a NORADO crossing mid field or the at the numbers. 

I am sure Don is great at what he does and you can learn new things from anyone.  I have had four instructors and they all have their own style

Based on the where I line up for the landings. Gear down abeam numbers.  you can land just in front of the 1000 foot markers depending on wind with power out.    It would make sense that the power off 180 be as part of the "normal" routine.  What one of my instructors told me is that it is simulating the engine loss when you start changing things after cruise.  So I normally put the gear down abeam the numbers if the engine quits I know I can make the field without pulling up the gear and then remembering to put them back down. I like having several different "normal" routines.  You never know when you might need one or the other routine in the dynamic flight environment.  Putting the gear down abeam the numbers gives me 4 more times to check the gear and make sure it is down.