J flap indicator repiar

[marky_24]

The flap indicator on my 78 J Decided to stop working. I was able to remove everything from the front with out having to take apart the center console.  

I started with removing the kick panel on the copilots side.

Then I removed the 4 screws from the indicator panel.  The glass is separate from the main part with the writing on it.  If you put both indicators to the bottom, you can reach around the back with one hand and hold the indacator and use your other hand to slide the plastic up and tilt it  sideways and pull it out then you can do the same for the main indicator being careful of the plastic indicators. 

In my case the plastic indicator was fine It just popped off the wire, more on that later. I used 5 minute 2 part epoxy to glue the indicator back on to the wire it rides up and down on. And then I put it all back together.  

After it was put back together I noticed It was showing takeoff flap when fully retracted. Doh! Crap I thought I did something wrong so i took it back apart, everything look fine. So I thought me and the hangar fairies would pull the belly panel below the flap motor and hope there was an adjustment.  Low and behold there was! And it turned out that it was the cause of my woes from the beginning. The way the wire is held on to the flap actuator is a bit odd. There is a bolt through the actuator with a nut on the other side. Then a washer then a hole in the bolt that the wire is passed  through. Then you LOOSEN the nut so it pushes against the washer and wire. Apparently it wasn't tight enough and when it cooled down this year it caused enough resistance in the cable to slowly push the wire farther back each time the flaps were raised until it was so far out of adjustment that when the flaps where lowered it pulled the wire out of the plastic indicator. So I squirted some cleaner up the cable and worked it back and forth a bunch then shot some lube up the cable worked it again, adjusted the cable till the indicator lined up and put it back together.  And all is well with the Mooney!

[N201MKTurbo]

Cool beans...

[carusoam]

Nice photos, Marky.

Flaps and their indicators are becoming more of a challenge lately.  Those photos will be helpful to somebody.

Best regards,

-a-

[rotheroe]

Thanks for sharing. Here's what it looks like in a 1980's M20J (SN 24-1169 to 24-3410). The first picture is from the rear, showing the trim and flap indicator screwed onto the backside of the plastic center console cover, with the illumination light socket on top.

The indicator rods are round plastic on these years, with a small black plastic tip glued onto the top. On my M20J the flap indicator plastic rod snapped off at the base where it joins onto the wire (at the top of the red heat shrink in the photos). I glued it with epoxy as a temporary fix and am now looking for a new indicator rod. There is some tension on the wire cables (pushing towards the cockpit along the pitch axis) which is probably what eventually led to the plastic rod cracking and breaking off. -Pete

[Yetti]

I have found that epoxy and acrylic will only last for so long.  Luckily Amazon has lots of it in various sizes that will show up at your door.  With some black paint you should be good.

https://www.amazon.com/Plastruct-90293-Acrylic-Rod-16/dp/B001GPWKPG

[Cyril Gibb]

The plastic end bits for flap and trim were both loose on my 75F, and the cables were binding.  I slid the whole cable inners completely out from underneath at the adjusters and cleaned off the 40 year old accumulated gunk, lubed and slid them back in.  I then used epoxy to glue the indicators back on to the cable ends.  While I had the indicator cover off anyway, I replaced the cracked indicator "window" with a Lexan replacement from the Home Depot aviation aisle.  Looks like new.  ...Just an alternative to accessing from the copilot side, I didn't have to remove/loosen the cable outers.

[rotheroe]

55 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I have found that epoxy and acrylic will only last for so long.  Luckily Amazon has lots of it in various sizes that will show up at your door.  With some black paint you should be good.

https://www.amazon.com/Plastruct-90293-Acrylic-Rod-16/dp/B001GPWKPG

The top tip is a smaller diameter black plastic piece that needs its smaller diameter to slide into the narrow black plastic insert at the very top of the indicator panel slot. Unfortunately that means not just painting the tip of the rod black. The main rod measures less than 3/16" diameter, but more than 1/8". There is a small spot on the side that suggests injection molding instead of just standard size rod, which would be strange considering the low volumes involved. At any rate the rod is the maximum diameter that will slide into the indicator panel slot, so I'd have to go with 1/8" if fabricating the part. An original is about $70 (!) from Mooney, but there is no stock availability. 

[flyboy0681]

After the tips broke off of my Trim and Flap indicators a few years ago (about two weeks apart), I had my A&P replace the cables. The new ones do away with the plastic in favor of black plastic tips wrapped around the cable itself, which wind it's way and is visible in the window itself. Although I can see the entire cable now through the window instead of clear plastic, my eye focuses on where the black tip is located, so it's not a problem. I also believe this is a better approach since there's nothing to break off now.

[rbridges]

awesome write up and pictures.

[mooniac15u]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

I have found that epoxy and acrylic will only last for so long.  Luckily Amazon has lots of it in various sizes that will show up at your door.  With some black paint you should be good.

https://www.amazon.com/Plastruct-90293-Acrylic-Rod-16/dp/B001GPWKPG

Epoxy is probably not the best choice for acrylic. Solvent welding will likely give better results. Regular cyanoacrylate glue would probably also bond well. 

[carusoam]

Great photos Rotherore.

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

On 4/10/2017 at 3:46 PM, mooniac15u said:

Epoxy is probably not the best choice for acrylic. Solvent welding will likely give better results. Regular cyanoacrylate glue would probably also bond well. 

Yep so making new is the option that lasts.

 

[rotorman]

 

On 1/2/2016 at 6:45 PM, marky_24 said:

The flap indicator on my 78 J Decided to stop working. I was able to remove everything from the front with out having to take apart the center console.  

I started with removing the kick panel on the copilots side.

Then I removed the 4 screws from the indicator panel.  The glass is separate from the main part with the writing on it.  If you put both indicators to the bottom, you can reach around the back with one hand and hold the indacator and use your other hand to slide the plastic up and tilt it  sideways and pull it out then you can do the same for the main indicator being careful of the plastic indicators. 

In my case the plastic indicator was fine It just popped off the wire, more on that later. I used 5 minute 2 part epoxy to glue the indicator back on to the wire it rides up and down on. And then I put it all back together.  

After it was put back together I noticed It was showing takeoff flap when fully retracted. Doh! Crap I thought I did something wrong so i took it back apart, everything look fine. So I thought me and the hangar fairies would pull the belly panel below the flap motor and hope there was an adjustment.  Low and behold there was! And it turned out that it was the cause of my woes from the beginning. The way the wire is held on to the flap actuator is a bit odd. There is a bolt through the actuator with a nut on the other side. Then a washer then a hole in the bolt that the wire is passed  through. Then you LOOSEN the nut so it pushes against the washer and wire. Apparently it wasn't tight enough and when it cooled down this year it caused enough resistance in the cable to slowly push the wire farther back each time the flaps were raised until it was so far out of adjustment that when the flaps where lowered it pulled the wire out of the plastic indicator. So I squirted some cleaner up the cable and worked it back and forth a bunch then shot some lube up the cable worked it again, adjusted the cable till the indicator lined up and put it back together.  And all is well with the Mooney!

I have this exact setup as below on my 20J 24-1033 built in 1980. But in my case the passenger footwell side panel is riveted on (photo #1). My failure mode is the moving plastic plexiglass indicator for the flaps (photo #2) is not visible. It must have detached from the wire and fallen down below the unit. The trim one is there and operating normally. I was able to remove the window (photo #3) from the front of the panel. However, even though I could push the unit back and look down the hole (photo #4) I could not see or feel the plexiglass indicator by sticking my finger into the hole. Also I could not see or feel the wire even with the flaps in the full up position. . I have not drilled the rivets in the right footwell panel yet hopes that there is some other way to gain access.

I would appreciate some creative suggestions on how to proceed in recovering the moving indicator and wire from the hole.

[flyboy0681]

From what I've read, the plastic indicator can be difficult to repair. When ours broke off we had the trim and flap indicators changed out with the factory replacement during its annual when the belly panels were removed. The new units consist of cables with a cap at the end. Not sure how this picture will display, but this is what it looks like.

[PT20J]

The rivets are just pop rivets - easy to drill and replace. 

[rotorman]

9 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

From what I've read, the plastic indicator can be difficult to repair. When ours broke off we had the trim and flap indicators changed out with the factory replacement during its annual when the belly panels were removed. The new units consist of cables with a cap at the end. Not sure how this picture will display, but this is what it looks like.

When did you do the replacement? Where did the parts come from? How was the area accessed?

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, rotorman said:

When did you do the replacement? Where did the parts come from? How was the area accessed?

I can't recall exactly when, but I'd venture to say about six years ago. I'm not sure where the shop obtained the parts, but I do remember being told that the cable is threaded through the belly from the flap/trim mechanisms up to the console without having to do any work from the interior, that is, the console was not removed or opened up.

[rotorman]

25 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I can't recall exactly when, but I'd venture to say about six years ago. I'm not sure where the shop obtained the parts, but I do remember being told that the cable is threaded through the belly from the flap/trim mechanisms up to the console without having to do any work from the interior, that is, the console was not removed or opened up.

Just called Lasar. Parts no longer available.

[M20F-1968]

I do not know why the factory made these Flap and Trim indicators with the solid wire cable simply drilled and press fit, or heated and melted into the plastic sliders.  They always come out resulting in a pain in the Axx fix.  

When I did my rebuild, I used a J model indicator and made new sliders designed to hold the cables with machine screws.  (All done with DER approval of course)

Pictures are attached.  The sliders are made with a nut plate inserted between 2 pieces of plexiglass.  The plexiglass pieces are chemically "welded" together using a clear chemical designed for this purpose (which was a pain to find even in Boston - I had to go to an industrial chemical supply house).

The end result are no loose cable ends and no slippage.

John Breda

 

 

[rotorman]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:35 AM, PT20J said:

The rivets are just pop rivets - easy to drill and replace. 

I drilled the rivets. They are steel and the drilled walked on a couple after the heads came off so I have a couple of extra holes. Removed the panel. With it off I could touch the back of the indicator but not much else. Managed to remove the clear plexi and pull the indicator out. The attached light was glued to the indicator by the PO so that became another repair. Looking down into the empty indicator hole but I was unable to see the missing part. The center panel had enough play that I could move it off the floor a small amount.  In a desperate attempt I took a coat hanger and swept under it and the part  popped out. Talk about luck. The reinstall was very difficult and took several hours. However all is is working well now. This indicator placement has to be on of the dumber ideas Mooney had.

The pictures posted by Marky 24 were a great help. Thanks to all who contributed.

[PT20J]

That must be the first part called for when the factory builds a Mooney and then they just start adding parts around it.  Glad it worked out. Miller time! 

I didn’t have any trouble drilling out my rivets when I had to replace the light bulb in my 1978 M20J. Maybe the previous owner put in steel rivets after he kludged the light bulb. 

Skip

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, PT20J said:

That must be the first part called for when the factory builds a Mooney and then they just start adding parts around it.  Glad it worked out. Miller time! 

I didn’t have any trouble drilling out my rivets when I had to replace the light bulb in my 1978 M20J. Maybe the previous owner put in steel rivets after he kludged the light bulb. 

Skip

I was thinking the same, that the airplane is assembled around the flap indicator.