Pre Purchase Inspection - Boston Area

[glafaille]

Greetings to all and Merry Christmas!

Long time professional pilot but new to Mooneys and this group.

I live in Texas and seriously considering the purchase of a vintage Mooney based in the Boston area.  I'm having doubts about the decision after reading a few threads on this board about wing corrosion and subsequent scrapping of entire airframes.  Yikes!

Any suggestions as to who I can send the plane to for a THOROUGH CORROSION focused pre purchase inspection?  Considering the potential financial investment and loss of said investment, I'm not all that concerned with cost.  I need peace of mind that when I show up at my local Mooney dealer,  Don Maxwell, with my new to me M20C, he won't find a nasty surprise at my first annual.  I wish I could take it to him but it's 1200 nm!

I would appreciate any advice you gents can give me.  Thank to all.

 

 

[Guest]

People here always speak very highly of Weber Aircraft in Pennsylvania, one of the oldest MSC's in the country.

Clarence

[Marauder]

People here always speak very highly of Weber Aircraft in Pennsylvania, one of the oldest MSC's in the country.

Clarence

They are good and expensive.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, gl.

You may want to add this idea to your line of thinking.

There is a Mooney Service Center in Norwood, MA.

http://www.mooney.com/en/Support.html#Centers

I have used the airport, but have not visited the MSC there.

Welcome aboard and best regards,

-a-

 

[pinerunner]

Have you talked to Don about it? Some mechanics make house calls and maybe Don or one of his minions would look at it directly if you paid for the airline tickets, etc. Sounds like you're OK spending a bit up front for peace of mind down the road and you've picked your mechanic for the long term.

[Guest Mike261]

Infinity at KASH is a mooney center. in southern NH but a quick flight from most of the boston airports.

Lawrence airmotive at KLWM ( under the boston class B veil) is not a mooney center but is familiar with the breed. I had prebuys on airplanes done with them. Excellent communication, he will call you when he hits a roadblock and ask if you want to pass at that point or continue the inspection, this saved me some money by cutting the inpection short on two mooneys that i rejected.

 

 

 

mike

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Marauder said:

They are good and expensive.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The quality remains long after the price is forgotten!

Clarence

[DXB]

Airmods (Robbinsville, NJ) is another reputable MSC option - they certainly know these airframes and seem like very nice folks - going there for annual on Monday. Coincidentally I just flew back from Boston today and was parked at Norwood (KOWD) - I've gotten a bit of aid from them in a pinch as a transient on their field once previously, and they were helpful, but I don't have a feel overall.

[Marauder]

Airmods (Robbinsville, NJ) is another reputable MSC option - they certainly know these airframes and seem like very nice folks - going there for annual on Monday. Coincidentally I just flew back from Boston today and was parked at Norwood (KOWD) - I've gotten a bit of aid from them in a pinch as a transient on their field once previously, and they were helpful, but I don't have a feel overall.

Let me know how it goes with Airmod. They did an annual for me in the 90s. Also did the lower cowl enclosure.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[glafaille]

Thanks to everyone for the pre buy advice, I'm waiting for more info from the seller before I decide on pulling the trigger.  

I'm really developing a feeling of extreme caution, which kind of spoils my airplane buying "Karma".

I really want to buy a Mooney C or E model but I am having a difficult time getting my head around this corrosion issue.  I have a fear that even with an awesome pre buy inspection and loving care, including a comfy hangar in Texas, I may still encounter an airframe destroying issue at any time, and without warning.  It appears from some of the posts here that by the time the problem is discovered it's already too late.  Are they right?

Kind of frightening from a financial point of view.  Or maybe I'm just making a big deal out of a 1 in a 1000 chance.  Any advice?

[M20F]

All airplanes corrode and from time to time you are going to have to address it on your airplane.  Things like corrosion-X, climate, etc. can slow it down but you will always get corrosion.  The thing to keep in mind is properly addressed it isn't a big deal, where you find the chronic corrosion issues is where you do a lot of pencil whipped annuals over the years and never look in the spots where getting corrosion is really bad.  Thus if you get a competent pre-buy on a plane you buy and follow it up with good annuals along with some corrosion-x then no big worries.

[glafaille]

M20F

 

Thanks for the encouragement.  Sounds like the prebuy inspection is the most crucial piece of this puzzle.  I'm leaning towards a pre buy at Webers in PA.  I talked to Dorn at Weber this morning and he seemed very focused on finding corrosion and seems to know where to look.

[Marauder]

M20F

 

Thanks for the encouragement.  Sounds like the prebuy inspection is the most crucial piece of this puzzle.  I'm leaning towards a pre buy at Webers in PA.  I talked to Dorn at Weber this morning and he seemed very focused on finding corrosion and seems to know where to look.

Is the plane from the mid-Atlantic area? Perhaps owned by one of our MooneySpace members?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Gla,

Yes, big deal, 1 in 1000...   Bigger deal if you get the 1...

Are you concerned that a Mooney is more susceptible to corrosion than any other plane?

I would hate to ruin the excitement of the process of buying a 50 year old metal object that has been stored outside in the weather.

Realistically any vehicle for sale should be looked at by a qualified person to protect you from getting stuck.  You get to decide what qualified person means to you.

The fun part of the project is you can get a really fast efficient airplane for a tenth of the current brand new price.  Who performs your PPI makes a difference.

Don't get cheep on this part of the process.  Be part of the PPI.  See every internal surface for yourself.  Corrosion can't hide from a determined PPI.  Corrosion doesn't happen over night following a PPI...

Bummer alert: a PPI for an Ovation doesn't cost much more than a PPI for an M20C.  Similar to annuals...

A plane that has been active since day one, stored indoors, and maintained by Mooney specific shops are going to sell for higher prices than those that have been outdoors continuously for 50 years and have had a few years of inactivity.

There are ways to manage or mitigate the risk.

Look at the each example of somebody that bought a corrosion problem.  What could they have done differently?  How much did they pay for their PPI?  Who did their PPI?

On the other hand I bought  my first Mooney on a CB's budget.  The PPI was a couple hours at the local mechanic. I looked at every surface inside and out.  This minimized the risk tremendously. The M20C was stored outside and hadn't run for a couple of years.  It's worst corrosion problem was related to what appeared to be soda soaked in the carpet. Call me lucky.  I wouldn't do that again.

Some hints you are taking on risk...

- Plane had been outdoors without a cover for years.  Windows are no longer clear.

- Engine has not been run for years.

- Paint is crumbling off

- known corrosion risks have not been checked.  Steel tubes and IO360 Cams come to mind.  Procedures are readily available...

- hangar rash that has been ignored by every mechanic, until after the sale.

- spar corrosion, flaking or powdery stuff doesn't belong on spars.

- No anti-corrosion spray (ACF 50 or others) has been used.

Are you trying to buy the lowest cost Mooney on the planet?  Fair warning: These are best for mechanics and people that have the proper skill set. Don't get drawn in by the low purchase price.

Ideas that come to mind regarding machine purchases.  Keep in mind I'm only a PP. My experience comes from buying the lowest cost Mooney in 2000.

If you go to AirMods in NJ.  They have a collection of corroded parts that they have removed from various planes. If you are good with conversation, you can learn a lot in a place like that.  I have used AirMods for a couple of PPIs for my O.

Best  regards,

-a-

 

 

 

[DonMuncy]

I consider corrosion to be a non-issue if the pre-buy by a Mooney savvy person doesn't find any. Unless it is kept outside and/or near the coast, your odds are great. Have it looked at each annual, and the odds drop to virtually zero.

[kpaul]

1 minute ago, glafaille said:

finding corrosion

Example of what to run away from.  Trust me I did.  I was attempting a long distance purchase, my PPI A&P saved me $$$$$.

[glafaille]

Thanks to all for the advice.  

I am a professional pilot of a corporate jet and very involved with it's care and maintenance, so I know a bit about taking care of aluminum flying machines.  I am familiar with corrosion and airplanes but not as it threatens Mooneys, hence my caution.  If a proper pre buy "inspection", and diligent maintenance thereafter, will eliminate the threat of a serious corrosion event in the future, I am much encouraged.  This is what I'm hearing.

When I receive further information on the prospective aircraft, I will post it here in the hopes some of you are familiar with it.  At this time I don't have much information except a few pictures, none of which show the N number.  I can tell you that this aircraft is not a "bargain bin" special, and at this point priced well above market, so much is expected where condition is concerned.  If the logbooks check out, I intend to fly to Boston for a "look see" sometime next week.

I really appreciate all the help and advice everyone here has offered.  I look forward to learning all about Mooneys from the folks on mooneyspace.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, kpaul said:

Example of what to run away from.  Trust me I did.  I was attempting a long distance purchase, my PPI A&P saved me $$$$$.

This type of corrosion is minor and easily fixed.  The stuff you're looking for is inter granular corrosion of main structural members like spars etc.

Look for a thread here "I just learned my C is junk" for examples.

Clarence

[glafaille]

M20Doc

I think I read that particular thread the other night.  It's the one that is causing all of my anxiety.  I want to avoid that situation at all costs!

[Marauder]

M20Doc

I think I read that particular thread the other night.  It's the one that is causing all of my anxiety.  I want to avoid that situation at all costs!

The good news is you can if you engage with a knowledgeable IA who understands what to look for. There was a horror story at my airport with a guy who bought a C and eventually scrapped it, not because of corrosion but because of hidden costs that the IA who did the PPI didn't catch.

PM me and I will set up some time to discuss what to watch out for. I have owned my Mooney for 24 years and have seen it all -- or at least I think I have

Sorry Clarence, but not all IAs are created equally. Just like doctors or any other professions, there are good ones and not so good ones. As well there are specialists in their fields and that is what you are looking for.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[pinerunner]

Cheer up,

Once you get through the purchasing process with a prebuy that gives you good peace of mind a vintage M20 series will give you the most performance for your money. I love the way my 63 M20E flys. Practically fell in love with it. There wil be maintenance issues of course but they will be worth it. As long as you're not carrying big loads or lots of passengers you're looking at the right plane for a fun x-country machine.

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

The good news is you can if you engage with a knowledgeable IA who understands what to look for. There was a horror story at my airport with a guy who bought a C and eventually scrapped it, not because of corrosion but because of hidden costs that the IA who did the PPI didn't catch.

PM me and I will set up some time to discuss what to watch out for. I have owned my Mooney for 24 years and have seen it all -- or at least I think I have

Sorry Clarence, but not all IAs are created equally. Just like doctors or any other professions, there are good ones and not so good ones. As well there are specialists in their fields and that is what you are looking for.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I've never suggest that all IA's are created equal.  I was merely pointing out that the corrosion in the picture is minor.  I've seen my share of junk planes in my career and if the plane in the pictures was rejected for a few spots filiform corrosion its an overreaction.  Surely there must be more to the rejected purchase.

Clarence

[pirate]

It's not only Mooneys. ALL makes, models, manufacturers with aluminum airframes are prone to

corrosion. 

I see Cessna, Piper, Beech etc getting scrapped all the time due to poor maint that leads to spar and other types of corrosion. 

 

 

[RangerJim]

You might consider taking a look in person at some of All American Aircraft's  listings and save yourself a lot of long distance anguish and travel expense.  Last time I checked they had several attractive pre-J birds in stock and they are right in your back yard.  If you are a serious buyer they should be high on your list of resources and Jimmy and David are straight shooting businessmen.

You might consider calling DMax directly and seeing if any of his clients are considering selling.  Often high end shops such as DMax or LASAR can point you towards a well owned aircraft before it hits the general market.

I'm a bit leery of these long distance romances (don't ask) and don't see why a Texas guy couldn't find a likely prospect within a few hundred miles of his own front porch.

Good luck in any case and happy hunting.

 

 

 

 

 

[glafaille]

Jim

 

Yes it is easy to find a Mooney for sale in my area.  BUT to find one that meets my needs, now that is a little tougher.  I need a corrosion free airframe, a mid time engine, solid autopilot, no fuel leaks, 720 channel radios, and instruments arranged in an IFR friendly way, all at a price under $50,000 or so.  Paint and interior not so important, but a decent maintenance history is.  Finding all of that around East Texas is a challenge.  Finding it anywhere is a challenge.

Believe me, I'm as leary of a long distance "love affair" as anyone, but I can't afford to leave any stone unturned.