Need engine overhaul advice

[helitim]

Gentleman,

The time has come to overhaul my I0 360 A3B6D.  I had a long talk with the engine shop today about a couple of different options while it is down and open for change.  If the case and crank are still good, they are to machine and return the engine as is.  Having never been a fan of the D mag, I talked with him about changing to single mags if the case were unusable for any reason.  It is my understanding this is a fairly common practice to change cases and eliminate the D mag.  Are there any particular caveats to making a change if this becomes an issue?  If the twin mags replace the single mag, where do you suggest mounting the oil filter?  Would you get a remote filter and mount it on the right front firewall, or is there a better solution?

 My engine has always been hard to start when cold so the single mags would allow the installation of the Slick Start option.  Do any of you have a a Slick Start and if so, does it work as advertised on a fuel injected engine? 

What about removing the RAM air?  I can't really see any increase with the current system and would just as soon get rid of it.  Do you just fiberglass over the hole?  Is there a cap to seal it up so I can remove the flapper and cable?  Is it worth the trouble to remove or, just leave it alone?

Any other suggestions while everything is opened up?

Thank you,

Tim

[ArtVandelay]

Ram air can be removed as per service instruction 93.

How many hours do you have on the engine?

Im not sure but check out the camshaft before you split the case, I recall that Lycoming won't take a core exchange if case is split. If you send it back to lycoming you will get dual mags and roller tappets, something to consider if case,cam is bad.

[helitim]

TJ,

Thank you for that service instruction number.  At present I am planning to use a local engine shop rather than lycoming.  Do you know if they have to replace the case or just the accessory cover to make the change?  What about the crankshaft?  I noticed the bolt hole on the single mag crank is smaller than on the dual mag.  Is that something that can be machined or is replacing the crank mandatory?

Also, I just posted on the Florida Fliers tab a question about property purchase.  Maybe you would be willing to offer first hand knowledge there as well?

Thank you,

Tim

[Shadrach]

13 minutes ago, helitim said:

TJ,

Thank you for that service instruction number.  At present I am planning to use a local engine shop rather than lycoming.  Do you know if they have to replace the case or just the accessory cover to make the change?  What about the crankshaft?  I noticed the bolt hole on the single mag crank is smaller than on the dual mag.  Is that something that can be machined or is replacing the crank mandatory?

Also, I just posted on the Florida Fliers tab a question about property purchase.  Maybe you would be willing to offer first hand knowledge there as well?

Thank you,

Tim

The accessory cover can be changed in most applications, but IIRC there are some engines that will need a new case.  It's a good idea to replace the D-mag as I don't think Continental is making them or model specific parts anymore, pretty much an orphan.

[OR75]

This was a good thread about converting from D to non-D IO-360 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

TJ,

Thank you for that service instruction number.  At present I am planning to use a local engine shop rather than lycoming.  Do you know if they have to replace the case or just the accessory cover to make the change?  What about the crankshaft?  I noticed the bolt hole on the single mag crank is smaller than on the dual mag.  Is that something that can be machined or is replacing the crank mandatory?

Also, I just posted on the Florida Fliers tab a question about property purchase.  Maybe you would be willing to offer first hand knowledge there as well?

Thank you,

Tim

I would pull the cylinders and check the camshaft, and case first.

If all good then the least expensive option is a top overhaul.

Second least expensive option is a full overhaul.

If inspection shows cam shaft is toast, then I would consider a factory option.

I'm no engine expert but I thought changing to a non D only a factory could do. Ditto for roller tappets. Another desirable feature.

I live on a boat, don't own property, can't help you with property purchase.

You seem to imply that you are considering overhaul because it's time, i.e. You have reached TBO. You might want to read some Mike Busch articles or watch his videos on this subject.

[helitim]

TJ,

The overhaul is not based on time.  It is unfortunately based on need.  The bottom made almost 2500 hours.  Top was just done 300 hours ago.  

Boat is definitely a great choice for some.  We just need a bit more room w the mother in law

OR75,

i will check out that thread.  Thank you.

Tim

[jetdriven]

what happened to the bottom? The last guy who had a spalled camshaft ended up 34 grand into a flat tappet engine overhaul. The crank and one case half were red tagged and that got expensive.

[helitim]

Byron,

Long story short, that is what I'm afraid of.  When the engine is cold the end play is correct and prop turns easy.  Warm engine and everything gets tight and no end play.  I'm concerned it spalled a main bearing or the crank. Decided to just bite the bullet and open it up to find out exactly what is going on.

Tim

[jetdriven]

the last guy who opened his engine up for that found nothing wrong.  Also, my engine gets tight when hot as well.

 

anyways, if it spun a bearing there is going to be tablespoons of metal in the oil filter and the oil is going to be glittery.

[M20F]

1 hour ago, helitim said:

TJ,

The overhaul is not based on time.  It is unfortunately based on need.  The bottom made almost 2500 hours.  Top was just done 300 hours ago.  

Boat is definitely a great choice for some.  We just need a bit more room w the mother in law

OR75,

i will check out that thread.  Thank you.

Tim

The induction on the J is a much better design than the previous models so the ram air as you point out doesn't really do much (it was in earlier models to essentially correct a bad induction design).  Personally I would skip the overhaul and just do the bottom, spending a couple of grand to overhaul the cylinders when the only have 300hrs doesn't really do much for you.  

[rocketman]

Why not a factory Overhaul or reman. First time run gets a reman for overhaul price for engines under 20 years old. No guessing on parts. All factory parts. Fixed costs. No questions so long as the engine was running. Maybe a little bit more, but resale value much higher. IMHO. Roller tappets, known quality, known company, long term existence and will be around for a lot longer, known guaranteed warranty, answers to all of aviation community, and they after all built your engine in the first place. 

[jetdriven]

They have a great warranty.  If anything goes wrong, call them and they'll blame you for it or say it's normal until  you go away. 

[M20F]

1 hour ago, rocketman said:

Why not a factory Overhaul or reman. First time run gets a reman for overhaul price for engines under 20 years old. No guessing on parts. All factory parts. Fixed costs. No questions so long as the engine was running. Maybe a little bit more, but resale value much higher. IMHO. Roller tappets, known quality, known company, long term existence and will be around for a lot longer, known guaranteed warranty, answers to all of aviation community, and they after all built your engine in the first place. 

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182826-1.html

[Guest]

6 hours ago, rocketman said:

Why not a factory Overhaul or reman. First time run gets a reman for overhaul price for engines under 20 years old. No guessing on parts. All factory parts. Fixed costs. No questions so long as the engine was running. Maybe a little bit more, but resale value much higher. IMHO. Roller tappets, known quality, known company, long term existence and will be around for a lot longer, known guaranteed warranty, answers to all of aviation community, and they after all built your engine in the first place. 

There must be two Lycoming factories doing overhauls. The one from Williamsport and this one from Fantasyland.

Clarence

[helitim]

18 hours ago, jetdriven said:

the last guy who opened his engine up for that found nothing wrong.  Also, my engine gets tight when hot as well.

 

anyways, if it spun a bearing there is going to be tablespoons of metal in the oil filter and the oil is going to be glittery.

I did an oil analysis last week and it came back perfectly in line with the previous ones.  Filter showed no metal at all.  What finally made the decision was when I had two different 30+ year A&P/IA's tell me that "something is wrong. The engine is talking to you and you need to listen to it". Some people may dismiss that but I do not.  The fact that everything was fine two weeks ago and then all of a sudden the engine started getting tight was enough to open this can of worms.  Yes, it will be expensive but I will fly without the worry when it's all said and done. 

The engine shop should have it all apart and diagnosed today.  

[Shadrach]

I'm really curious! Do report back soon!

[Marauder]

Since this thread has taken its usually deviations, can someone explain the value of roller tappets? I understand the theory of how they work. Has there been any conclusion of the value they bring?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

9 hours ago, M20F said:

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182826-1.html

check out the author

[M20F]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

check out the author

And check out all the people quoted in the article.  I am just sharing information but certainly share the opinion that the factory route is the most expensive and generally the worst option.  

[PTK]

Put aside zero time, roller tappets, access to original production drawings, CAPPS and whatever else advantages only the factory can have at its disposal. Forget all these for a minute and do an apples to apples:

What is really the cost delta between a field new limits OH from a reputable shop utilizing no PMA but genuine Lycoming parts including new cylinders, and a factory new limits OH?

Adding roller tappets alone to the equation, I don't see how there is a delta significant enough to make one not go factory!

There's inherent added value to go factory.

 

[Shadrach]

On November 24, 2015 at 10:27:54 PM, rocketman said:

Why not a factory Overhaul or reman. First time run gets a reman for overhaul price for engines under 20 years old. No guessing on parts. All factory parts. Fixed costs. No questions so long as the engine was running. Maybe a little bit more, but resale value much higher. IMHO. Roller tappets, known quality, known company, long term existence and will be around for a lot longer, known guaranteed warranty, answers to all of aviation community, and they after all built your engine in the first place. 

How much are they paying you...really?

 

-Rant on

I think lycoming designed a wonderful engine back in the 50s. However, I feel the company has been a poor steward of that heritage. It seems that they are plagued by poor management and policy, as well as a general aversion to modernity. From the $50,000 dollar question that aviation never asked (IO390) to the poor QC and customer service on heritage models. My 15yr old engine monitor is more sophisticated than Lycomings test facility. A member of this board was recently delivered a factory engine with a huge EGT spread. It turned out to be a clogged injector. The factory had test run and delivered the engine in that condition and admitted that they don't even implement the instrumentation to catch such an issue. Contrast that with Penn-Yan's or Zypher's engine test facilities.

I have seen first hand how Lycoming responds to being challenged by a new breed of savvy consumer that is educated enough to understand when they're being fed a line of BS...obviscate and deny. They seem to resent all of the information that has been desiminated to the consumer and it is evident in their snarky and adversarial stances toward some of the more innovative individuals and organizations working to help pilots operate and maintain their engines optimally.

The only advantage to a "factory engine" in my opinion is the change to roller tappets. A change they have wisely held hostage in Williamsport as most of the predominate overhaul shops have demonstrated they can clean Lycoming's clock on quality, value and customer service.

Known quality, known quantity indeed...

-Rant off

[helitim]

The shop owner called me yesterday to come by and examine the disassembled engine.  Turns out the face of the case halves had developed some corrosion and fretting.  When I recently removed the #2cylinder to repair an oil leak it disrupted the seal on the surface faces.  When I re torqued everything, the bearing clearance had tightened up just enough to make the engine tight when trying to manually turn the prop.  He seems to think it can all be machined and the case and crank reused. My thoughts of eliminating the D mag may not come to fruition but that's Ok I guess.

[garytex]

Mine's comming apart same scenario. I'll have the report soon.

Gary