CB question:

[Danb]

Amelia like I said your funny and it's your hard earned money, it appears you merely only asked a question re. the normal ,whatever that is, cost of an oil change. I think it's cool you pay to help your friends or people you know in an effort to help them, I'd do the same thing, I assume we're not members of the CB club thank god. Enjoy your plane, your friends and helping others, again I think your cool, forget what these morons say, when they pay your bills it's then time for them to complain. I believe you merely asked a benign question...Jeez.

[carl]

How about that Obama !!!!!

Wow, now there is a topic. !!

And this heated discussion is just about an oil change.

I do agree with Amelia, if there were a side to take.  I know several A&P , IA who are mega wealthy , they do favor corvettes and sailboats.    

[PMcClure]

I'm guessing the lack of a wife and kids have more to do with his toys instead of the oil change bill. I'd be in a TBM by now if I didn't have 5 mouths to feed, house, and educate!! 

 

That said, I think my oil clanges are about $150 with oil and I'm happy to pay it.

[Becca]

I know the thread has drifted a bit since the original..  and contains all the expected nonsense from the Neanderthal pilot population.

Having done a lot of research on buying a plane and experience with prior club-level ownership, I believe the standard amount to budget for an oil change is $250 including the oil and filter.  Lots of shops charge a fixed fee for services like an oil and filter change, and they don't have some sort of weird variable hourly price (oh, it took Bob 1 hr, but John 3 hrs).  The oil and filter costs us about $75 each oil change.    Don't assume your mechanic is examining your engine while doing the oil change -- a good mechanic should, but that is absolutely not a service you are paying for.  You should watch an oil change once or twice and see how your mechanic does it - including if he is really taking the time to inspect the engine.  Would be eye opening I think.

FWIW, I learned to change the oil and spark plugs in an C-150 with basically no prior mechanical experience at all (I didn't even know how to use a torque wrench) when I was 18 years old.  Its not much harder at 35 years old doing it on our Mooney, though since dear jetdriven is always tinkering on our airplane, I have a built-in mechanic.  Doing it yourself is a good way to save money.  It takes about an hour.  A good time to do it is just set it to draining right after you fly (20 min), and then when you come back to fly again, just finish the job (another 30 minutes including changing the filter). 

Also, FWIW, you can't use your non-pilot husband to change your oil.  Its one of the privileges you have with your pilots license (and yes, you even have to fill it out in the engine log and sign your name), a non-pilot can't change the oil.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Becca

[ryoder]

I have learned that on Mooneyspace there are questions that you cannot ask and posts you cannot make without being ridiculed.  One of these is questioning the cost of an item or service charge.  

Edited October 16, 2015 by ryoder

[Mooneymite]

..... nonsense from the Neanderthal pilot population.

 

Changing oil is so simple, a caveman could do it.

 

[Sabremech]

I don't think this forum is the right place to get prices or going rates on aircraft maintenance. Labor rates vary greatly from one state to another, one county to another, one city to another.  We can offer our opinions on what we've paid in our area, but your best bet is to ask around the airports near you and use that info to gauge whether you paid a fair price or not. 

 

 

[Amelia]

That simple, eh? So long as I can get somebody much taller than I am to help with the cowling, maybe there's hope for me.... I'm still in the lefty-loosey, righty-tighty camp of mechanical expertise, though, even after all these years.

I just figured it had been a while since I paid any attention, and that number caught my eye, as his posted shop rate is $65/hr, (more if you watch, even more if you help, and much more yet if you tried to fix it first), especially since I provided the oil. I wasn't balking, just surprised it apparently took so long, and I still have a mess in my hangar to clean up. And curious as to the going rate other places. Apparently way up nawth, it's really spendy, and second opinions are NOT deemed appropriate. FWIW, I'm perfectly willing to admit there's a price to be paid for such on-the-field convenience, and being able to count on him looking out for my safety, to the tune of several thousand dollars a year..

Most experts, in my limited experience, don't get all bent out of shape when people compare notes with fellow enthusiasts. Some people may even think it's just part of due diligence.

Our man, bless his heart, is a dear, odd, knowledgeable, self-effacing soul. The next annual, I think, though, may just go to a mechanic who WILL let me watch/help/learn stuff, at least so long as I promise not to try to fix it first. With luck, it won't take six weeks.And I won't still be waiting for my logbook entries.

 

 

[Becca]

That simple, eh? So long as I can get somebody much taller than I am to help with the cowling, maybe there's hope for me.... I'm still in the lefty-loosey, righty-tighty camp of mechanical expertise, though, even after all these years.

I just figured it had been a while since I paid any attention, and that number caught my eye, as his posted shop rate is $65/hr, (more if you watch, even more if you help, and much more yet if you tried to fix it first), especially since I provided the oil. I wasn't balking, just surprised it apparently took so long, and I still have a mess in my hangar to clean up. And curious as to the going rate other places. Apparently way up nawth, it's really spendy, and second opinions are NOT deemed appropriate. FWIW, I'm perfectly willing to admit there's a price to be paid for such on-the-field convenience, and being able to count on him looking out for my safety, to the tune of several thousand dollars a year..

Most experts, in my limited experience, don't get all bent out of shape when people compare notes with fellow enthusiasts. Some people may even think it's just part of due diligence.

Our man, bless his heart, is a dear, odd, knowledgeable, self-effacing soul. The next annual, I think, though, may just go to a mechanic who WILL let me watch/help/learn stuff, at least so long as I promise not to try to fix it first. With luck, it won't take six weeks.And I won't still be waiting for my logbook entries.

 

 

My two cents: 1. I would not go to a mechanic that would not allow me to be present for any and all work.  When interviewing mechanics ask how they feel about owner education while they are doing work -- to me its worth paying for a few hours extra of work if it means during that work they are explaining to me how my airplane works so next time something happens I am smarter about it.  2.  Spilling oil in my hangar without cleaning it up or at least apologizing and saying it won't happen next time is unacceptable.  3.  On the field/in your hangar oil change should be cheaper because mechanics who do this are often "fly by night" that do not have a permanent place of business, and therefore have lower overhead and are working out of their truck and may not even have the same full suite of tools or supplies or the insurance that a shop with a hangar would have (leaving to longer waits for repairs), don't consider this a convenience worth paying extra for.   (Not commenting on quality of the mechanic here, just the resources of a mechanic operating out of his truck vs. a shop as a generality).

Unfortunately, there aren't many women in aviation, even fewer that deal with mechanics, and its a profession  in airplanes, boats, and cars, that aren't exactly known to be chick-friendly.  And people wonder why there aren't more women in aviation?  I had one noted Mooney mechanic, when I asked how long it would take to change an alternator, said "honey, how many stars are there in the sky?".  (Ha, he never called my husband "honey").  He did not respond well when I said "I don't know, but since you have been working on Mooneys for 35 years, I figure you could give me an estimate that's at least within 1-2 hrs of reality for this common repair."  For the record, the answer is, 6 hours for him to screw it up, charge us $600, have it fail on its next flight, and then 2 hrs for us to do it ourselves again with a new alternator under the supervision of a different mechanic.   For those of us maybe more prone to being ripped off then the so-called mechanical-geniuses on this forum, having a place to compare prices and extent of work like Mooney space is invaluable as a consumer resource, nothing wrong with asking.

And yes, even as a righty-tighty-lefty-loosey type you can change the oil.  Its literally like plug a hose to a drain and drain the oil, then refill oil just like adding the oil.  It doesn't even require the use of a tool.  The filter is a little more of a challenge, you'll have to get someone to teach you to use a wrench and safety wire, but if you can fly the plane you can master it with limited instruction -- maybe easier because small hands get in small Mooney-spaces better than big hands.

Also, on the cowling, a step ladder is the solution and then just lift it straight up slowly and then over and behind you.  (I am 5'6", and I definitely prefer using two people to remove the cowling, but its possible if you have to do it yourself).

Edited October 16, 2015 by Becca

[Bob_Belville]

I see AS W100 on their website but I could not find a store that carries it anywhere near here. And they won't price it until you find a store. I've been using the oil-store, last was $69/case + $18 frt.

[Bob_Belville]

 

The next annual, I think, though, may just go to a mechanic who WILL let me watch/help/learn stuff, at least so long as I promise not to try to fix it first. With luck, it won't take six weeks.And I won't still be waiting for my logbook entries.

 

 

Mimi, bring it to AGL Aviation here @ MRN. Fine Mooney mechanic with an application in to be a MSC. I'll give you a ride home. and pick you up. Or you can stay here a few days and do it owner assist. Bring you clamming clothes.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Bob_Belville

[bonal]

Big difference in drain time if you don't get that oil hot otherwise it's like lassis in wintertime. Last time we had a spark plug issue so engine could not be warmed up man that took some time to get it all out. Mine also still has the screen not a spin filter and that takes some time. Unfortunately the mech that worked on it with me this time had never done the old screen housing so I had to do some training. Cost me 500.00 but most of that was the spark plug issue. Time before that it was 120.00 including oil. But then I do most of the work. I don't know why some folks get so riled up. And who knows where some people acquire wealth.

[jetdriven]

It's a wash.  Running the engine to warm up the oil causes nearly a quart to remain in the upper part of the engine, which won't drain out.  Draining it cold is slow, but you could drain out all but the last quart from a cold engine and still get the same amount out of it. 

Fwiw multi grade oil runs out pretty good when cold so long as it's not colder than ~50 degrees.  

[cnoe]

I can understand the reluctance for MSers to post things like "Gearwrench Gary is an incompetent idiot" but I'm having trouble understanding why it would be taboo to say "Mechanic Mike did a great job on my oil change and it was a good deal at $175".

I'll stick my neck out and state that the Parker Aircraft guys at KAXH were super a few weeks ago when my right main inner tube shed its valve stem on taxiway alpha on a busy Saturday morning. Without a new tube and tire in stock they quickly located lightly used replacements and then drove down with a wing jack and a portable compressor to perform the repair on the spot. Two workers and 30 minutes later I was on my way on my original undamaged tire with a like-new (free) tube. They charged me $75 total labor. I offered to pay for the tube but they wouldn't accept it. Great service at a great price.

P.S. I bet they're fair on oil changes too.

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[ArtVandelay]

Re: Becca

Do all planes have the quick release hole drain?

You don't mention the pickup screen.

Do you have to remove the lower cowling?

What do you look for when cut the filter open, or in the pickup screen.

Seems it's not that easy for a newbie and a mistake could be costly.

I've change oil on cars, boats, and motorcycles. But not a plane...yet, a mistake would be costly.

If I was a little closer to Page I would have gone to their recent maintenance seminar.

[Marauder]

It's a wash.  Running the engine to warm up the oil causes nearly a quart to remain in the upper part of the engine, which won't drain out.  Draining it cold is slow, but you could drain out all but the last quart from a cold engine and still get the same amount out of it. 

Fwiw multi grade oil runs out pretty good when cold so long as it's not colder than ~50 degrees.  

I wonder if pre-heating the engine without running it would make much of a difference?

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[ryoder]

 

I wonder if pre-heating the engine without running it would make much of a difference?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I was wondering the same thing.

[Guest]

This has been an interesting read.  In my case an oil change is charged out at "time and materials".  

If you want me to change your oil and I have to retrieve your plane from your hangar and return it when finished, that will cost extra.  My time is as valuable as any other professional.  If you want to drop it off and pick it up it will be less.

Running the plane to warm the oil is normal unless you just flew in, post maintenance run and leak check prior to installing the cowl is also normal.  

Labour required varies greatly, early Mooneys have too many screws, about 100 in my old E model, J models are a breeze.  Longer cowls on K and up require extra hands( yours or my apprentice) to prevent damage to your beautiful airplane.  

Some shops will happily let your old oil run down the firewall for you to wonder if it's a new leak or poor workmanship.  Doing It spill free takes a second longer, less time than cleaning the mess.

Is the suction screen being done? Some do, some don't. I've seen poor engine installations jobs where things are installed in the way of the screen which have to be relocated, this takes time.  If your engine has a Tanis suction screen heater this adds time and required caution, I don't want to break it and buy you a new one.

While to the oil is draining we look around the engine, lubricating things like your exhaust slip joints and wastegate butterfly valve on your turbo.

The oil filter has to be opened and examined, to find your camshaft, again some do, some don't.  Waste metal and filter media has to be recycled, as does the waste oil.

If a sample is taken, someone has to fill out the papers and ship the sample, you or me.  At the end log books need to be filled out.

While its in the shop my apprentice will wipe down the belly, check the tire pressures and the lights for you, yes a case of "while we're at it" Most of my customers appreciate it though.

As has been said there are many variables between models and quality of the work and what is included and what is not.

Clarence

 

Edited October 16, 2015 by M20Doc

[Danb]

Clarence

Its obvious you do the work properly, I agree that a/p's should and need to be paid, and that payment is generally not unreasonable. I have a few mechanics, avionics shop and had an FBO as clients, I'm a CPA. They have high overhead to just operate there business prior to them being paid. Unlike many a business there fixed cost is very high, high insurance, rents for a big hanger, office, utilities to heat a large area, costs to keep current in there Continuing education, subscription costs of a/d's manuals and on and on, now that's before getting into variable costs and receiving renumeration for themselves. Considering the enormous investment in tools, education and education it's truly a wonder that the cost of maintenance is not higher. I know my guys that have expensive toys had another source of income. These guys should be paid for saving our butts and should not be on the end of busting there chops in there effort to feed there families. Three of my companies went out of business due to high overhead. I'll bet you all like a raise occasionally , before throwing them under the bus  try to remember they have a life to!

 

[PTK]

Clarence

Its obvious you do the work properly, I agree that a/p's should and need to be paid, and that payment is generally not unreasonable. I have a few mechanics, avionics shop and had an FBO as clients, I'm a CPA. They have high overhead to just operate there business prior to them being paid. Unlike many a business there fixed cost is very high, high insurance, rents for a big hanger, office, utilities to heat a large area, costs to keep current in there Continuing education, subscription costs of a/d's manuals and on and on, now that's before getting into variable costs and receiving renumeration for themselves. Considering the enormous investment in tools, education and education it's truly a wonder that the cost of maintenance is not higher. I know my guys that have expensive toys had another source of income. These guys should be paid for saving our butts and should not be on the end of busting there chops in there effort to feed there families. Three of my companies went out of business due to high overhead. I'll bet you all like a raise occasionally , before throwing them under the bus  try to remember they have a life to!

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/16711-cb-question/?do=findComment&comment=237745

Thank you for the perspective Dan.

And let's remember, calling folks "Neanderthals" and "morons" is unprofessional. It was my impression that MS was above that. Could be wrong.

Edited October 16, 2015 by PTK

[LANCECASPER]

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/16711-cb-question/?do=findComment&comment=237745

Thank you for the perspective Dan.

And let's remember, calling folks "Neanderthals" and "morons" is unprofessional. It was my impression that MS was above that. Could be wrong.

"Moron" was unprofessional. "Neanderthal" fits, though, in two of the three (uncivliized, uncouth). "Catalyst" seems appropriate.

adjective: Neanderthal

1. 1.

   relating to Neanderthal man.

   • (especially of a man) uncivilized, unintelligent, or uncouth.

     "your attitude to women is Neanderthal

     cat·a·lyst

     ˈkad(ə)ləst/

     noun

     noun: catalyst; plural noun: catalysts

     1. a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.

        • a person or thing that precipitates an event.

          "the governor's speech acted as a catalyst for debate"

          synonyms:

          stimulus, stimulation, spark, sparkplug, spur, incitement, impetus "the governor's speech was a catalyst for debate"

[Yooper Rocketman]

Owning a decent sized truck dealership, and starting out as a mechanic myself, I have a pretty good understanding of this owner/mechanic relationship.  Doc makes some great points.  Your wrench does not have near the overhead of a shop though, and in my mind, he's not giving you the best service.  I've had customers try other shops for their work, most come back.  Those that don't are purely looking at price, and that's fine.  I would just as soon be happier they don't.  I've had customers come to us from other shops, many stay, but some go back to their original shop.  So what's the point?  Get a recommendation for another option and try it.  There's nothing better than a comparison between a couple shops or mechanics.  If anyone gets upset because you checked around, then they probably are not who you should be using.

On a second note, if your guy will NOT allow you to observe, he's doing you a real disservice, especially in this industry.  Granted, a shop on a commercial airport, with TSA crawling all over the place, will likely not be able to allow you in the shop, most smaller shops, and especially a guy doing it in YOUR hangar, should welcome the opportunity to educate the owner.  Unlike our the big trucks coming through my dealership, if your equipment quits you can't pull it over to the side of the road to deal with it. My local FBO has always welcomed owner education and owner assist under the right circumstances.  Working on, or observing him working on, your bird in your hangar is an opportunity to educate an owner for a mechanic with the right attitude.

On a final note, I have a Dr. friend (very good pilot friend, but we are on opposite ends of the pole on some things) that's called me troglodytic ‎(trōglodutikós, “of cave-/hole-dwellers”) because he doesn't like my conservative views.  I had to call the library (many years ago) to find out what the heck he was calling me.  Neanderthal would have been a compliment.

 

[cnoe]

I once had a drunken U.S. Border Patrol agent call me a "peanut-headed a$$-wipe" because I wouldn't allow him and his buddies to interrupt our research site to go swimming. To this day I still look back and wear that moniker with pride.

I heard some time later that he eventually got in trouble for pulling his sidearm on some poor undeserving citizen. Probably lucky I didn't get shot.

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[Mooneymite]

 There's nothing better than a comparison between a couple shops or mechanics.  If anyone gets upset because you checked around, then they probably are not who you should be using.

Well said.

 

[Danb]

peter

your correct..