Electric Flaps Troubleshooting

[N201MKTurbo]

http://sensing.honeywell.com/honeywell-sensing-micro-switch-tl-toggle-product-sheet-005430-1-en.pdf

 

 

[bonal]

 

Sort of. Last weekend, I was able to fly and they worked fine until the second landing and they wouldn't come up until I cycled the breaker a couple of times.

 

Tonight they worked normally. I have learned in my 24 years owning this plane, intermittent problems are a path to constant problems. Just a question of how long... Considering I'm dealing with 40 year old components, a little preventative maintenance won't let me stranded.

 

We're still sorting out what everything does. A pretty complex flap system as far as Mooneys go.

 

 

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yep I guess the damn thing is broken. Good luck electrical gremlins have always been my least liked.

[Marauder]

http://sensing.honeywell.com/honeywell-sensing-micro-switch-tl-toggle-product-sheet-005430-1-en.pdf

 

 

Thanks. Looks like the switch is no longer made: 2TL75. Hopefully I can figure out a cross reference.

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[N201MKTurbo]

There is one for sale on line for $35

[Marauder]

Alright, another update. Had a chance to do a bunch of takeoff and landings today. No failures at all. So, did the cleaning finally free up a switch or am I in between electrical glitches?

Yetti - I would still be interested in mapping this circuit out and getting any part numbers off of the relays. Still a chance both of us may need to deal with this circuit again in the future. Jim and I went through the schematic, but whatever the switch is doing and details on the relay configurations is still up in the air.

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[N201MKTurbo]

The switch was probably a special order from Mooney with the lever and all. After no orders for that part number in fourty years they took it off their list. If you wanted to buy a few hundred, or pay a bunch for one I bet they could find the old drawing.

[Yetti]

There is always one screw....   Moved on to the 1974 brake line with a bit of chafing that needed replacement..   Hopefully get to it tomorrow.

[Guitarmaster]

 

 

Alright, another update. Had a chance to do a bunch of takeoff and landings today. No failures at all. So, did the cleaning finally free up a switch or am I in between electrical glitches?

 

Yetti - I would still be interested in mapping this circuit out and getting any part numbers off of the relays. Still a chance both of us may need to deal with this circuit again in the future. Jim and I went through the schematic, but whatever the switch is doing and details on the relay configurations is still up in the air.

 

 

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It sounds to me like my gremlin may have jumped to your plane.  Have you tried the the proper chants and dances?

[Marauder]

It sounds to me like my gremlin may have jumped to your plane.  Have you tried the the proper chants and dances?

I did! And I think it has moved on to the plane next to me in the hangar. I went to fly this evening again and I thought it was odd that the left wing of his Piper was chest high on me. At 6'4" I seem to remember it being around waist high. Looked under his plane and it seems his right wheel strut collapsed.

I guess that "Out evil demon" chant did work! The flaps worked normally again tonight. Still would like to understand how these flaps work in case the Piper guy heard me chanting and does one of his own!

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[Yetti]

Here you go

 

[Marauder]

Here you go

[url=http://mooneyspace.com//gallery/album/14130-75-f-flaps-relay-and-limit-switches/?do=embed]

 

Dude! Can't thank you enough! I will have the EEs here at work piece together how this whole system works. You got a great picture of the microswitches in the front and it was two like a suspected, back to back.

I will post the wiring diagram once we can figure everything out.

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[Yetti]

If I had to troubleshoot it I would cut the harness apart to help trace things.  They are two sided relays but looks like they only use one pole at least on the starboard one. The starboard relay is the CF02  Port is CF03  I am still a little confused how it knows to stop at TO middle position.  Has something to do with the flaps switch.   It is kind of funny talking with the IA.   "So we need to check the flap pump"   Nope electric flaps.  "hmmm wonder where the motor is"  Maybe under the baggage compartment.  "Maybe why don't you pull some more panels"   Dang OK. 

A Day later.  Lots of things have been lubed.most of the panels back on. New front seal on the crankshaft. One 1975 brake line replaced. One relatively sore Yetti.  Turning screws upside down is hard.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Yetti

[triple8s]

If I had to troubleshoot it I would cut the harness apart to help trace things.  They are two sided relays but looks like they only use one pole at least on the starboard one. The starboard relay is the CF02  Port is CF03  I am still a little confused how it knows to stop at TO middle position.  Has something to do with the flaps switch.   It is kind of funny talking with the IA.   "So we need to check the flap pump"   Nope electric flaps.  "hmmm wonder where the motor is"  Maybe under the baggage compartment.  "Maybe why don't you pull some more panels"   Dang OK. 

A Day later.  Lots of things have been lubed.most of the panels back on. New front seal on the crankshaft. One 1975 brake line replaced. One relatively sore Yetti.  Turning screws upside down is hard.

It knows how to stop at take off position because there are two micro switches which are actuated by a flat metal tab which moves with the flap linkage and when the takeoff position is reached it operates those 2 micro switches. If you lay under the airplane with the flaps in takeoff position and push in the takeoff position micro that is not already pushed in the flaps will move so that it tries to activate the switch. Basically you have two switches working against each other. One switch trying to send the actuator toward the other switch. Total of 4 switches 1 is the fully deployed limit, another is the fully retracted limit, then 2 switches for the take off position. On the panel, a three position switch, retracted, full flap, and take off position. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by triple8s
FYI the schematic is for a long body with 3 position electric flaps

[bonal]

Any wonder why I love my hydrolic manual flaps. Honestly I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction perhaps cleaning and then working the contacts was all it needed.

[Marauder]

Do you have a photo of the schematic for the cockpit switch? Your explanation and the wiring diagram makes sense. BTW - is that a Mooney produced diagram? The paper ones I bought from Mooney look nothing like it.

The pictures Yetti posted show the two switches side by by near the flap actuator. And looking at the marks on the flat tab you can see how it moves. The two switches on the jackscrew also now make sense since the right one would be actuated when the the collar makes contact as it rolls up and conversely the full down would be activated when the collar rolls the opposite way.

Does your wiring diagram post part numbers for the relays anywhere? I have the parts manual and will try to match them up with stuff Newark carries. I hope my recent cleaning was the resolution, but I have been burned before on wishful thinking.

Thanks for taking the time to run through this with me. And Yetti, thanks for taking very clear photos of the relays. If I can't find the part numbers, I can see the relay functions on the sides.

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[carusoam]

Yetti's pictures show dark colored spades on the relays. Is that oxidation?

if yes, then a newer version may be more oxidation friendly...?

the environment clearly isn't friendly to ordinary metals...

best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

It's grade A rust on the spades that are not used.

[Jozu]

I have a 69 Mooney Model F and I dislike the electric flaps preferring the manual flaps I have flown in other plane types.  Does anyone know if there is an electric to manual flap conversion?

[Marauder]

I have a 69 Mooney Model F and I dislike the electric flaps preferring the manual flaps I have flown in other plane types.  Does anyone know if there is an electric to manual flap conversion?

Not that I am aware of. If there was, I suspect it would require a fair amount of work to convert.

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[LANCECASPER]

My flaps (M20M) would not retract after takeoff on Thursday. I came back and landed and no movement trying to get them up. They would move further down and are now stuck in the full down position. I pulled off the belly pan and located the micro switches (up limit and down limit) . They were very clean but I hit them with contact cleaner. Still nothing. I tried wiggling the flaps with the switch on to see if that did anything  . . nothing. I am suspecting either a bad relay on the up circuit or a bad switch in the cockpit. Any other ideas I'm missing?

[Yetti]

Start at the top of the circuit.   At the circuit breaker.   Work your way through making sure power is getting to each place.   A 12volt battery hooked up properly to the flap motor will get you flying again.   It will also tell you if it is the up circuit or down circuit.   Run it up with the battery. Polarity matters here. Then see if you can run it down with the switch.

Then you know you have only to fix the up circuit.

 

[Yetti]

And an out of annual update.   When going to half flaps mine would not come back up.  But If I went to full flaps it would come up fine.   Liberal dousing with contact cleaner on the limit switches and working the switches and more dousing has things all working as should be.

[Cruiser]

the limit switches on the screw jack are the full up and full down travel limits. They probably are not your problem

there are two additional limit switches forward of the motor that a metal plate attached to the main flap rod moves along. The metal plate has a notch along the edge for the take-off position. These micro switches must be in the proper closed/open condition to allow the motor to retract the flaps.

The switches are sealed so unless the contacts are bad it is most likely wear (position) of the roller on the metal plate. They are adjustable. Clean everything first and visibly check for wear on rollers or the metal plate.  

[mike_elliott]

6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

My flaps (M20M) would not retract after takeoff on Thursday. I came back and landed and no movement trying to get them up. They would move further down and are now stuck in the full down position. I pulled off the belly pan and located the micro switches (up limit and down limit) . They were very clean but I hit them with contact cleaner. Still nothing. I tried wiggling the flaps with the switch on to see if that did anything  . . nothing. I am suspecting either a bad relay on the up circuit or a bad switch in the cockpit. Any other ideas I'm missing?

yea, there is a fairly expensive relay board that may need attention, unfortunately.

[LANCECASPER]

Follow up. There are two relays for the flap actuator, one that controls the up circuit, one that control the down circuit. I swapped relays and got the flaps up and now the down circuit doesn't work so it must mean that the one relay is bad. I ordered two new relays since they are both the same age. I'll find out for sure when I put them in. For once there's actually a cheap part for an airplane.

http://www.alliedelec.com/schneider-electric-magnecraft-w67rcsx-3/70184966/