Rudder Length

[prflyer]

I have conducted a search on Mooney Space, and inquired of some friends, but we are still not sure of the answer.  Some vintage Mooneys have shorter rudders that end at the horizontal stabilizer, while others have full length rudders.  My friend's 1965 E model has a short rudder, but we have seen a 67 F model that has the full length, as well as a 1970 C.

Is there a particular year and/or model that came from the factory as a full length rudder?  When was the change made? Also, does anyone know why the change was made?  Thanks!

Fernando

 

[Hank]

Seems that '65 was when it changed. Far as I know, it changed across the board. My '70 C has the full length rudder.

the Why part probably has to do with manufacturing methods and/or improved crosswind control when landing.

[carusoam]

I believe my 65C was one of the last with the short rudder.

it was a nice design, but clearly could use improvement for stronger crosswind handling during the landing phase.

it isn't good to run out of any control because of a mechanical limitation.  Paying customers appreciate more control.

Do some additional research to find when the rudder throw (movement) was increased as well.

market forces combined with engineering skill produced longer rudders with increased rudder authority.

similarly, there were improvements to the cowl and seals to gaps and additional power and newer stronger sattelite navigation as time evolved.

if you run out of rudder authority, go to another airport with better alignment with the wind.  I never had to in my decade of flying it.  But, where and how you fly may make a difference...

I started with a short body Mooney with a short rudder, mostly because I was short on cash and not long on years....

How is that?

best regards,

-a-

Edited September 20, 2015 by carusoam

[takair]

I suspect that the F needed a long rudder and the short bodies went along for the ride to reduce parts count differences.  Anybody with an F have a short rudder?

[Bob_Belville]

Seems that '65 was when it changed. Far as I know, it changed across the board. My '70 C has the full length rudder.

the Why part probably has to do with manufacturing methods and/or improved crosswind control when landing.

My '66 M20E still has the shorter rudder. With the trailing edge tube.

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/36719-img-20150608-201156113/

Edited September 20, 2015 by Bob_Belville

[Shadrach]

I think the change was made because it's easier to manufacture.  The Marketing department ran with it.   I doubt it makes a huge difference in practical rudder authority.

[Mooneymite]

 

I have the longer rudder on my 'C', but no wickerbill.  (....you know that thing that looks like a pencil holder on the aft edge).  The shorter rudders used it to increase effectiveness, but apparently it didn't suffice, so Mooney went with the longer rudder.

 

The jet I fly has a gurney flap on the rudder, so it must be back in vogue.

[DXB]

I believe my 65C was one of the last with the short rudder.

I suspect that the F needed a long rudder and the short bodies went along for the ride to reduce parts count differences.  Anybody with an F have a short rudder?

Actually my '68C has the short rudder, and I have seen '69 Cs with the long rudder - so I assume that's when the change happened.  The C also lost the J bar and hydraulic flaps that year.  What takair said makes sense regarding the introduction of mid-body F in '67 driving the change.  

In case you were wondering, my sturdy J-bar more than compensates for any inadequacy I might otherwise feel because of my small rudder 

[takair]

I think the change was made because it's easier to manufacture.  The Marketing department ran with it.   I doubt it makes a huge difference in practical rudder authority.

 

I would think the short rudder would be hard to beat.  As I recall, the long rudder...at least the early ones, encorporated the stinger of the tail cone.  Looks rather complex, to me.  I could remember wrong though.

Edited September 20, 2015 by takair

[Shadrach]

 

I believe the stinger has always been there. It's just part of the rudder assembly now. On the pre full length rudder birds I believer the stinger was assembled separately and then screwed to the tail (likely after the rudder was mounted to ensure alignment).  2 pieces to mount instead of 3.

Also, given that the tail is an inverted wing producing downforce, at approach speeds (high AOA for the tail) it seems likely that the lower rudder is in an area of turbulent air.

just guessing, I'm no aerodynamicist!

[prflyer]

Thanks everyone. Seems like the longer rudder started with the F model and moved to the Cs in 1969.

[Wildhorsesracing]

I wonder if the earlier 'C's could be retrofitted with the longer rudder?  I can vouch that there are times when a little more rudder would be nice, especially flying near the beach or mountains.

[1964-M20E]

I guess it could be done but there is an extra bearing point in the lower portion.

 

 

[Shadrach]

I guess it could be done but there is an extra bearing point in the lower portion.

 

 

are you sure? I have my rudder a cursory glance yesterday and it appears the differences are only sheet metal deep.

[carl]

my 67 e has the short rudder and the wickerbill . 

 

wickerbill !i was looking at it yesterday and thinking . im going to have to ask .what the heck is this thing and what does it do . 

thanks for.answering before i asked . 

 

[Hank]

wickerbill !i was looking at it yesterday and thinking . im going to have to ask .what the heck is this thing and what does it do . 

 

well, now we know its name, but what does the wickerbill do? Besides hold small flags / pennants while parked?

[MB65E]

It dampens the rudder oscillations. It also lightens the pedel input required.   

I believe the The Gurney Flap does the same thing. Cj's have them starting just above the rudder trim tab... I thought it was full length, guess not. 

I know on aerobatic airplanes they can improve the brake out forces required to move the flight control out of the faired position. 

My 65e has an effective rudder at cruise. One could argue it ocellates more than any other airplane of its vintage. I personally like the feel of the rudder. However, It could be bigger during take off. 

 

-Matt

[1964-M20E]

are you sure? I have my rudder a cursory glance yesterday and it appears the differences are only sheet metal deep.

Yes I checked it this evening.

[carusoam]

Check for two appendages...

1) the flag holder...

2) the trim

my short rudder on my short Mooney had them both...

best regards,

-a-

Edited September 22, 2015 by carusoam

[Hank]

are you sure? I have my rudder a cursory glance yesterday and it appears the differences are only sheet metal deep.

Here is my full-length rudder. The large opening is where all of the control rods come out from the fuselage to move the elevators and rudder. Below that [see second photo for closeup] is another set of rudder bearings. This would certainly complicate retrofitting a long rudder onto a short rudder plane. Sorry to bring bad news, ya'll . . .

P.S.--no wickerbill.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Hank

[N201MKTurbo]

I believe with the short rudder design the vertical and both sides of the horizontal stabilizer are made on the same jig and the rudder and the two elevators are identical.

With the long rudder , they are different.

[M20F-1968]

The long rudder started with the 1967 F and G models.  The change was made t increase rudder authority.

John Breda