Choices for a forced landing

[Cyril Gibb]

On the way back from a camping trip in Quetico Park, we left Atikokan International (CYIB) eastbound towards the north shore of Lake Superior.  Below us was not much of anything.

The choice would have been trees or water.  I've read about flying it all the way to the crash, but I haven't read anything about preferences.

Is it better to land gear up flaps up in the water, or try to slow the plane down by flying into a hopefully level stretch of  conifer treetops?

Are there any stats about surviveability for either?

 

[Raptor05121]

We had this discussion a while back over on the Purple Board. The discussion was, 400nm from civilization, would you take a forest or open stretch of ocean?

Most people chose forest just because "I can walk 400 miles, but I can't swim it". As far as initial survivabilty, I'd take water, especially with a low wing retract.

[MyNameIsNobody]

water.

[1964-M20E]

Given the choice while flying along a lake with tree lined shores I'd take the water and land as close to shore as possible gear up and full flaps.

 

Even better some marsh grass with gear up IMHO that way you end up in about 6" of water.

 

Of course there are some that will argue to put as much out into the wind as possible to slow you down

[M20F]

Given the choice while flying along a lake with tree lined shores I'd take the water and land as close to shore as possible gear up and full flaps.

+1 I also carry a PLB when I fly in the middle of nowhere and an assortment of survival items.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Always a tough to pick when

• If the water is much under 60F it is a poor choice
• Landing in trees is a pretty poor option nearly always
• Crash landing and successfully walking out hundreds of miles is unlikely

It comes down to risk assessment, and risk acceptance I suppose. 

 

Over lakes Michigan and Erie to and from OSH this year I flew overwater more than 100 miles each direction well beyond gliding range of the shore.  However, the water was fairly warm, it was day VMC, I was wearing a life jacket and ready to trigger the 406 ELT.   Also I was solo and was not risking any passenger.    I was comfortable with visualizing ditching.  

 

Per the thread:  I would have turned towards any visible boats, landed into the wind (not much wave height) with gear up and full flaps.  I'd have turned on the ELT and popped the door on the way down.   My insurance is paid.

 

 

 

 

[chrisk]

It depends on how cold the water is and how cold the air is.  You will not last very long in 40 degree water.  If you can get to the shore in 15 minutes you have a chance, but only if you can get dry and warm up.  --So if it was a summer day and 90+ degrees, the water is the obvious choice.  If its around freezing outside and near night time, the trees are probably a better choice.

[midlifeflyer]

For an excellent treatment of this subject get Mick Wilson's How to Crash and Airplane (and Survive!). Mick passed away some years ago but his publisher (and probably his family) is keeping things going. 

[kmyfm20s]

This is a great book! Quick easy read and made me more confident of survivability in the event that a forced landing was to happen.

http://www.crashandsurvive.com

There is also an EAA webinar on surviving a forced landing.

[Cyril Gibb]

For an excellent treatment of this subject get Mick Wilson's How to Crash and Airplane (and Survive!). Mick passed away some years ago but his publisher (and probably his family) is keeping things going. 

I'll get that book, thanks for the tip.

re: other appends... no boats , no people, no roads for most of the time

I do carry a PLB in the plane that we also use for our camping trips, thankfully unused.

I had heard that ditching should be gear up to prevent flipping and flaps up to prevent tank ruptures....?

How long does a Mooney stay afloat after a ditching?

[M016576]

If the water is 40 degrees, expect approx 5 minutes... Not 15. A short swim would be very difficult unless you train for that sort of thing... And are dressed appropriately.

The biggest consideration is surviving the impact/ crash. If you're knocked unconscious in the water landing you'll die. But your chances of staying conscious through the water landing are probably better than surviving the treetop collision and subsequent fall.

I aim to ditch vs tree top when I'm over similar terrain. Then camp out by the lake (or river), pop the sat beacon I carry and see what's yummy in my survival kit after building a small fire....

[M20F]

The biggest consideration is surviving the impact/ crash. If you're knocked unconscious in the water landing you'll die. But your chances of staying conscious through the water landing are probably better than surviving the treetop collision and subsequent fall.

It is safe to say both options are not really good and odds are you probably die in both instances. That being said my thoughts are with yours which is the chances I figure of hitting a giant forested canopy and surviving seems a lot worse than hitting the water.

[midlifeflyer]

It is safe to say both options are not really good and odds are you probably die in both instances. That being said my thoughts are with yours which is the chances I figure of hitting a giant forested canopy and surviving seems a lot worse than hitting the water.

There are more than a few cases of people landing in treetops and surviving without significant injuries.

[M20F]

There are more than a few cases of people landing in treetops and surviving without significant injuries.

For every situation somebody can point out an alternative. People fall out of planes at significant altitude and live without a chute, that doesn't open that up to me as a viable alternative to a forced landing either.

[DAVIDWH]

Gear up , flaps down, water into the wind and hope you are able to repeat Sully Sullenbergers famous words,

 

" It wasn't as bad as I thought".

[carusoam]

Summary:

If the choice is between water and trees...

Landing in the water next to the trees is more survivable.

There are couple of pictures of various Mooneys and an old video of a mooney that have done successful water landings. No fires...

We have at least two MS members that have flown into the trees. One unable to maintain altitude landed in the top, the other was on the ground before the trees. Neither plane was reusable. Both pilots are fine.

They have given full explanations of what happened if you search for them...

If you have a choice land first, with low airspeed, avoid any large hard objects.

Stalling 50ft above the ground is bad. Falling from a 50ft tree is bad.

Not calculating density altitude and proper take-off distance with your W&B can lead to flying with the trees. That would be bad.

My memory is a bit fuzzy. Some of the details have been left out. The topic is a bit grizzly.

Losing power on take-off is worth studying and preparing for.

Either way, don't expect your Mooney to float very long. That is why the life jackets and/or survival suits are already on while flying.

Best regards,

-a-

[The-sky-captain]

There are more than a few cases of people landing in treetops and surviving without significant injuries.

I know two local guys that have survived tree top landings. One was at night and he just plain ole lucked out, hit a soft tree and climbed down the trunk with nary a scratch. Dumba$$ ran out of gas so go figure. The dumb ones always survive. The other guy, a passenger, had significient injuries and was the only survivor.

[marks]

Generally speaking I think a landing into the wind, gear up flaps down, would be the better initial result.  However, I saw a Mooney that crashed into large waves off Martha's Vineyard and the windshield was gone and it looked like it hit a stone wall.  Both inside were dead.

[jetdriven]

If this was it I don't think it mattered if t was water or land, the plane crashed at high speed.

http://vineyardgazette.com/news/2002/11/22/new-evidence-confirms-violent-crash-small-plane-waters-vineyard?k=vg55d5cf901ae87

[Cyril Gibb]

Lots of information here, but as usual, lots of "it depends"....

http://www.equipped.com/avsrvtoc.htm

[marks]

To tell you the truth Byron, I had two accidents mixed up in my mind.  I remember the Ovation accident now.  The son of the passenger was a student in my wife's science class.  On a brighter note, there was a great accident this past July 1st in Mackay Idaho.  A student pilot flying a Cheetah, flew into a dead end valley and tried to fly straight ahead and out above the ridge line.  He failed to fly at best angle airspeed because he reported that he heard the stall warning buzzer going on and off.  But in the end the report shows he crashed into trees in mountainous terrain and was uninjured.  -  Obviously forward speed is the big determination of initial survival.  Personally, I'd rather land in water if land was nearby.  

[M016576]

If this was it I don't think it mattered if t was water or land, the plane crashed at high speed.

http://vineyardgazette.com/news/2002/11/22/new-evidence-confirms-violent-crash-small-plane-waters-vineyard?k=vg55d5cf901ae87

When I was flying T-34C's in flight school, they taught us to ditch parallel to the wave swells, when ditching in the ocean, gear up, flaps down, with the canopy already open. I would recommend similar action, regardless of wind direction for the ocean, and keep that door cracked open. Flying into even a 3-4 foot swell at 60 knots will most likely end poorly... But if you can fly parallel, you've got a chance.