IS MOONEY EXPERIENCE A MUST?

[Greg252AY]

It seems like the conventional wisdom on this forum is that it's important to have mooney specific training to fly or work on mooneys. I hope I'm not over confident but I didn't get specific mooneys training after buying my m20k. I read the POH thoughly and read this forum and other places about gotcha items, (approaching runway at appropriate speed, ect). I have found the airplane to be very straight forward to fly. However, i did decide to find a experienced mooney mechanic to do the annual.

Questions:

How much training did you receive in your mooney? Do you take your plane to mooney certified center or just a good mechanic with mooney experience for maintance?

[BigTex]

So Greg, why did you go against conventional wisdom and elected to not obtain transition training?  Inquiring minds want to know.

[Will W]

I received training from many known Mooney sources including annual training.  I think that formal training is a must for me because when I fly, I take people with me and I want them to have a safe and knowledgable pilot at the controls.  Could I fly a Mooney without training in perfect conditions?  Sure, but I worry about the abnormal stuff, building up ice, high altitude flying, landing gear issues, and deeper system knowledge that the POH doesn't explain.

 

The maintenance is second to none. Maintenance is done in Don Maxwell's shop and getting it there takes a flight of 921nm.  I'll pass several shops on the way but no one is better in my opinion.  The price is also very fair and family lives about 4 hours away from his shop so its almost convenient to fly in, drop it off, and see family.  Can a shop prove their Mooney experience?  I don't think they can.  Not like Don Maxwell.  I've experienced a near perfect dispatch rate (can't think of a reason I've cancelled for maintenance but I'm sure I'm just forgetting something) and so if a plane is down for an annual, it's great that they seem to notice things that are going bad and fix them so that I don't have things break and be down between annuals.  I don't trust any mechanic and some are really not specialists in Mooney's like they claim.  Sure, he might have worked on a D or J model but I bring him a R.  Does that seem like a good idea?  Sure, some parts are identical, but engines are different and things need calibration.  Does he really know how to balance fuel injectors on a Continental IO-550?  Too many times, things get overlooked by mechanics that don't really specialize in aircraft and when it's my life in the plane and people I care about, I would like my best option.  Besides, have you ever looked on the ramp in front of Don Maxwell's shop?  It's nothing but Mooney's everywhere.  Not one Cessna, Piper or Beechcraft.  That is a true aircraft specialty mechanic in my opinion.

 

In all truthfulness, bad mechanics probably don't stay in business for long.  People build reputations fast and word gets around.  You can probably take it to a mechanic and they can inspect it.  Maybe they get out the checklist and do a thorough check on the plane. There are too many maybes for me to risk it.  First annual was at a large chain FBO.  Never again.  They were paid to go to a MSC to learn how to re-rig a flight control system after they said the control cables needed replacing.  They didn't know how to do the work and it still frustrates me to this day.

 

I do wish you the safest outcome on all of your maintenance and flying.  Something to think about is that if you use a reputable shop to fix an aircraft and there ends up being an issue later, they will stand by their work and will help pay to fix it if they did something wrong.  Most MSC are this way I've noticed.

 

Best Wishes!

[donkaye]

It seems like the conventional wisdom on this forum is that it's important to have mooney specific training to fly or work on mooneys. I hope I'm not over confident but I didn't get specific mooneys training after buying my m20k. I read the POH thoughly and read this forum and other places about gotcha items, (approaching runway at appropriate speed, ect). I have found the airplane to be very straight forward to fly. However, i did decide to find a experienced mooney mechanic to do the annual.

Questions:

How much training did you receive in your mooney? Do you take your plane to mooney certified center or just a good mechanic with mooney experience for maintance?

 

I've taught for over 5,600 hours over the past 21 years--mostly Mooneys.  I think no matter what aircraft you fly you should get make and model experience from a CFi who has lots of experience in that make and model aircraft.  I think this is especially true of Mooneys.  Landing speed isn't the only issue with Mooneys.  The landing gear is system is very different on the Mooney compared to the oleo strut airplanes that pretty much land themselves.  It's very easy to get yourself into a PIO that results in a prop strike even if you come in at the proper speed in the Mooney, but touch down with too much vertical motion.  An experienced CFI can have you actually practice that during transition training--at least I have my students do bounced landing practice before I sign them off on the airplane.  In my opinion you're kidding yourself if you think you can be self taught in the Mooney.  That may just come back to bite you when you least expect it.

 

I've owned my airplane for 23 years.  There were a couple of years in the beginning that I didn't go to a MSC.  Big mistake!.  Just like anything in life, if you practice at it extensively you get very good at it.  So it is with MSCs.  They know Mooneys so well, that problems can be diagnosed quickly and fixed much faster than with an A & P with limited knowledge of the airplane.  When I leave Top Gun after an Annual, I feel very confident that my airplane has had a thorough going over and any problems that may have existed were found and taken care of.  In my opinion it is penny wise and pound foolish to have work other than an oil or brake change done by anyone not associated with a MSC, but you may need to find that out the hard way.

[Lood]

I got a 2 hour conversion tot type from an experienced instructor and that's it. I also found my F very, very easy to fly. I did read up everything about Mooney's though and I was very well versed in all the theory around them.

I take my F to the Mooney agent for maintenance. Not only because they're the agents, but because they're among the best AMO's to be found in Africa.

[M016576]

Since you're asking the question, then yes, you probably could benefit from some form of transition training.

Little is "cosmic" under the cowling on a mooney. It's simplicity is part of its beauty. They are pulled by the same tractor engines powering most of the other high performance singles out there. Their are a few "gotchas" that an unfamiliar mechanic may not catch... But for your average experienced A&P not a challenging aircraft to work on. For specific issues, a MSC might be prudent. For general issues, you'll spend a fortune unnecessarily. But we each have our own opinions on that!

Disclaimer: I'm not an A&P. I did not get specific mooney transition training either. But I do have a background in operational test flying and had over 2000 hours in prop/turboprop/jets prior to flying my J. 500+ mishap free mooney hours since....

[Parker_Woodruff]

Reasons for going to a MSC include them having the proper rigging tools (travel boards). Any A&P can make a Mooney fly straight, but it could be at the cost of 5 knots.

There are a couple gear collapse threads on MS where the A&P knowledge of gear rigging is suspect.

Doing gear rigging by the book is imperative and someone that doesn't work on Mooneys regularly will be billing you extra for the time it takes to learn. (So I've been told by my preferred Cessna A&P who tells every Mooney someone asks him to work on to Don Maxwell).

[Spenscot]

I went from PPL check ride directly into a M20 S and received a good 10+ hrs of training with a Mooney-specific instructor who could fly and land my plane with his eyes closed. Then when I started my instrument training with the flight school, the CFII with no Mooney time basically drooled all over the plane for the first few lessons and was as interested in the Mooney as he was teaching me IR basics. A lot of the CFIs rarely fly faster than 110 kts in Skyhawks so it's also nice to have someone who can get you thinking in Mooney time where things happen a lot faster than in trainers, and especially if you plan on practicing stalls.

[Greg252AY]

So Greg, why did you go against conventional wisdom and elected to not obtain transition training?  Inquiring minds want to know.

BigTex, when I was a young cfi (28 yrs ago) I flew anything, anytime to build time. I was working in a couple small towns in okla and getting a checkout often wasn't practical to do the mx flights, ferry flights, I would study the poh and talk with the mechanics about the plane and go fly. So I guess I have a bias because it always worked out in the past. Even my last type rating at work was mostly self study for the ground portion. So I don't want to leave the impression I just got in and started flying, maybe a better question is, can you read enough information to do your own checkout? I read the POH and mx manual then spent hours online looking at anything I could find on the 252. So I believe have a good understanding of the systems. Btw, I live down the street from you in argyle and keep the plane over at prop wash.

[TWinter]

I think a PP can transition without a Mooney specific instructor, but having said that, I don't think it is the most practical  way to become a good Mooney pilot. My transition was with a older CFI. He was the same CFI that got me current in a little Cherokee after a 25 yr hiatus from flying (I only had about 90 hrs total when I bought my Mooney). If asked was it the safest transition?..probably not. I did a lot of the transition training on my own. By that I mean, I used any resources available such as any reading, videos, DVDs, forums, talking to other pilots and even Youtube videos. My first year with my Mooney was limited me to flying in a "comfort zone", my flying with passengers was also very selective.

 

In closing I'll say yes, you can safely transition with a non-Mooney CFI. The trade-off is much of the proficiency and polish will be left to you. Be careful, know your limits and take your time. It took about three years for me to confidently say I'm flying the Mooney and it's "Not" flying me. With a Mooney specific instructor I'm sure I would have had that warm and fuzzy feeling much sooner.

 

 

-Tom

[DrBill]

Insurance required 10hr dual w/instructor with over 100 hrs of Mooney time and 10 hr of solo.  I received a lot of advice from a friend who has a 20C. I really began to feel comfortable and ahead of the airplane 1/2 thru the solo. Before that I was basically following checklists and advice.

 

My on field mechanics were highly experienced owning their own business and had significant  Mooney knowledge. The first one left after working on it for 2 years to take over the family farm in TN (he still does some annuals but too far for me). The second stayed 2 years and left (went home to TX) to a higher paying contract job (he had trouble marketing and keeping busy during the slow time). The third is still there.

 

Bill

[Parker_Woodruff]

You've hedged your bets by reading the whole POH. It's something I try to get every transition student to do.

Sometimes there is a time and place for the know-how of someone who has been in the plane a lot.

How fast the electric trim moves. When it's best to manually trim (quickly!) such as a go-around.

From an insurance underwriter's perspective, we see the losses. Training and regular flying keep losses down.

Infrequent flying leads to loss of good habits and technique.

[donkaye]

But I do have a background in operational test flying and had over 2000 hours in prop/turboprop/jets prior to flying my J. 500+ mishap free mooney hours since....

 

Well, that says it all.  All you need is 2,000 hours test flying airplanes to not need Mooney specific instruction.

[Guest]

What to do when there are no instructors with your type of plane? When I bought my Comanche 400 I had over 300 hours in several models of Comanche, 700 in several Mooney models, 300 in the RV4, plus lots of other fixed models.

The insurance company wrote the policy with no questions or restrictions. I read the PoH fully, understood the systems, but did take along a friend who had more than 500 hours of Coamche time as well.

I will face the same issues with my Mooney Mite when it flys again, there are no 2 seat Mites, an instructor will be of no help, so all I can do is consult with other Mite owners and go fly it.

Clarence

[MyNameIsNobody]

Minimal. An A&P that has worked on multiple Mooney's. Brought mine back from it's neglected hanger queen state. Experience is never mandatory, but any experience, that doesn't kill you, is a valuable experience in my book. Live and learn...Learn AND live.

[StevenL757]

I received training from many known Mooney sources including annual training. I think that formal training is a must for me because when I fly, I take people with me and I want them to have a safe and knowledgable pilot at the controls. Could I fly a Mooney without training in perfect conditions? Sure, but I worry about the abnormal stuff, building up ice, high altitude flying, landing gear issues, and deeper system knowledge that the POH doesn't explain.

The maintenance is second to none. Maintenance is done in Don Maxwell's shop and getting it there takes a flight of 921nm. I'll pass several shops on the way but no one is better in my opinion. The price is also very fair and family lives about 4 hours away from his shop so its almost convenient to fly in, drop it off, and see family. Can a shop prove their Mooney experience? I don't think they can. Not like Don Maxwell. I've experienced a near perfect dispatch rate (can't think of a reason I've cancelled for maintenance but I'm sure I'm just forgetting something) and so if a plane is down for an annual, it's great that they seem to notice things that are going bad and fix them so that I don't have things break and be down between annuals. I don't trust any mechanic and some are really not specialists in Mooney's like they claim. Sure, he might have worked on a D or J model but I bring him a R. Does that seem like a good idea? Sure, some parts are identical, but engines are different and things need calibration. Does he really know how to balance fuel injectors on a Continental IO-550? Too many times, things get overlooked by mechanics that don't really specialize in aircraft and when it's my life in the plane and people I care about, I would like my best option. Besides, have you ever looked on the ramp in front of Don Maxwell's shop? It's nothing but Mooney's everywhere. Not one Cessna, Piper or Beechcraft. That is a true aircraft specialty mechanic in my opinion.

In all truthfulness, bad mechanics probably don't stay in business for long. People build reputations fast and word gets around. You can probably take it to a mechanic and they can inspect it. Maybe they get out the checklist and do a thorough check on the plane. There are too many maybes for me to risk it. First annual was at a large chain FBO. Never again. They were paid to go to a MSC to learn how to re-rig a flight control system after they said the control cables needed replacing. They didn't know how to do the work and it still frustrates me to this day.

I do wish you the safest outcome on all of your maintenance and flying. Something to think about is that if you use a reputable shop to fix an aircraft and there ends up being an issue later, they will stand by their work and will help pay to fix it if they did something wrong. Most MSC are this way I've noticed.

Best Wishes!

I've been using Brian Kendrick (formerly of the Mooney factory) for the last four years. Brian is an absolute surgeon, and although he typically chooses to work on the M, R, TN, and an occasional J or K, I consider him the "Mike Holmes" of the Mooney maintenance world...in other words, people who have had things goofed up on their aircraft by the bigger shops (including a few MSCs I won't name here) come to Brian to get it done right. I bring Brian up to NY each year for my annual, or I go nearly 1300 miles to Texas - either way works as long as I have him doing my maintenance.

[carusoam]

Yes, life without Mooney experience is not well lived....?

To each, his own...

Are you short on available cash or time?

Do you want the best for you and your machine?

Do you have tons of aviation experience and just need a list of problem areas specific to your airframe? If this is you, you already know your answer... You are already looking to join the cadré of other people like you....

1) you can skip the traditional wisdom, but why would you?

2) my son bought the college books, why should I send him to the expensive school?

Books: 1AMU

Tuition: 50 AMU

3) proof that the Mooney specific training covers something not quite detailed (properly for everyone) in the POH. Read up on go-arounds.... Take the Mooney to a more than safe altitude. Practice landing to go around maneuvers. Consider this one of 20+ things that can be better understood having the proper professor. A Mooney experienced CFII is able to keep an eye on your power plant while sending you through gyrations...

Bounced landing recovery is the other expensive thing that comes to mind.

Emergency descents from turbo altitudes is pretty cool. Go speed brakes!

Some people like the mind set... They have bought the best plane for their mission. It is natural to get the best training and maintenance that is available.

Other people think they are different... Distractions don't happen to them.

I don't fly for a living.

- It was an easy decision to skip the Mooney specific training and MSC maintenance when I had less money...keeping one eye closed often helped.

- it was an easier decision to get Mooney specific training and MSC maintenance when I bought a plane that costs as much as my house.

There are few ways to look at your next steps.

1) continue on reading... This website covers everything and then some...POH, Parts Manual and Maintenance Manuals...

2) the Mooney Safety Foundation puts on a training a few times per year that is tailored to the way you fly and how to get the best out of your plane for you.

3) there is no end to safety.

4) there is no end to training.

5) unfortunately, there are limitations to cash and time available...

When I transitioned to the O...

I had 10 years of M20C experience. The transition training went quickly as expected. The O is a bigger, faster, newer version of the C. I am confident that I have been trained on every detail that is available to be trained on for that airframe. I am confident that my MSC is capable in all things Mooney.

Either way, I still have less money...

[Marauder]

I think a PP can transition without a Mooney specific instructor, but having said that, I don't think it is the most practical way to become a good Mooney pilot. My transition was with a older CFI. He was the same CFI that got me current in a little Cherokee after a 25 yr hiatus from flying (I only had about 90 hrs total when I bought my Mooney). If asked was it the safest transition?..probably not. I did a lot of the transition training on my own. By that I mean, I used any resources available such as any reading, videos, DVDs, forums, talking to other pilots and even Youtube videos. My first year with my Mooney was limited me to flying in a "comfort zone", my flying with passengers was also very selective.

In closing I'll say yes, you can safely transition with a non-Mooney CFI. The trade-off is much of the proficiency and polish will be left to you. Be careful, know your limits and take your time. It took about three years for me to confidently say I'm flying the Mooney and it's "Not" flying me. With a Mooney specific instructor I'm sure I would have had that warm and fuzzy feeling much sooner.

-Tom

You are absolutely correct. My non-Mooney trained CFI who did my Mooney "transition training" taught me everything NOT to do in a Mooney. In fact, during our stall series, I got to see what a stall done poorly and the subsequent spin looks like from tree level after we leveled out.

I'm fortunate in that I have a close friend who is a 4000+ hour Mooney owner with a CFII. I fly with him several times a year including IPCs that I do every 6 months. It is amazing how many bad habits you can pick up.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[DXB]

Right after I got my PPL in a standard trainer, I did dual instruction in my newly purchased M20C with a Mooney Safety Foundation instructor and former M20C owner.  I did the 10 hrs required by insurance - he wanted to sign me off before this, but I actually would have liked to go beyond the 10 hrs - maybe I'll find some more instruction soon.

[DXB]

You are absolutely correct. My non-Mooney trained CFI who did my Mooney "transition training" taught me everything NOT to do in a Mooney. In fact, during our stall series, I got to see what a stall done poorly and the subsequent spin looks like from tree level after we leveled out.

I'm fortunate in that I have a close friend who is a 4000+ hour Mooney owner with a CFII. I fly with him several times a year including IPCs that I do every 6 months. It is amazing how many bad habits you can pick up.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Chris- if you don't mind, PM who your instructor is.  I'd like to get some more training this fall.  My guy is great but I want other perspectives too.

[DonMuncy]

Any pilot can fly badly or kill himself with or without transition training.

Any Mooney can have problems of some kind with or without a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic.

Success in aviation, like all things in life, is built on odds. Your odds of being a better and/or safer pilot is better with better training, and your odds of getting better training (for Mooney flying) is better with a Mooney knowledgeable CFI.

And your odds of having lower Mooney maintenance problems are better with Mooney knowledgeable mechanics.

I think that Mooneys have a few more differences from brands C, C, P and B, that move those odds a little more than most, but this may be bias or ignorance on my part.

[carusoam]

Risk Management, Mooney style.....(See Don's post above)

Best regards,

-a-

[Will W]

The FAA Is taking a stance with this with AC 90-109A.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_90-109A.pdf

 

Here's an excerpt:

4. RECOMMENDED FLIGHT TRAINING. a. Choice of Aircraft. The following lists methods of flight training, in preferred order, when seeking to transition to an experimental and/or unfamiliar airplane:

 

(1) Best Training. The best training is accomplished in the specific airplane the pilot intends to fly with a well-qualified instructor who has recent experience in the specific make and model.

(2) Second Best Training. The second best choice would be in the same model as the one the pilot is planning to fly.

(3) Third Best Training. The third best choice is to fly an airplane with similar characteristics (which may include a TC’d airplane). 

 

APPENDIX 7. NONTRADITIONAL OR UNFAMILIAR AIRPLANE SYSTEMS OPERATIONS

A NTSB Excerpt Example

 

APPENDIX 8. NONTRADITIONAL OR UNFAMILIAR AIRPLANE SYSTEM OR COMPONENT MAINTENANCE REQUIREMENTS

A NTSB Excerpt Example

[gsxrpilot]

As you all know, I fly a C which is probably much simpler in all aspects than the long bodies. My insurance required 5 hours dual and 5 solo. I did the 5 dual with my regular CFI. He's not a Mooney specific instructor but claims about 800 hours in Mooneys out of 26K hours of instruction. 5 hours later the M20C was as simple and straight forward as the Cherokee I learned in. 200 hours later I'm just that much further ahead of the airplane.

 

Regarding maintenance it's my local A&P for simple, non-Mooney specific things, during the year. But once a year it goes to visit Don Maxwell and that will not likely change anytime soon.

[peevee]

Seems like insurance companies just throw a dart at the board when choosing requirements. I have fairly low time, no Mooney time, 100 complex, some multi, and a ton of ratings. No requirement at all put on me. It's just bizarre.