Walk away or move forward with prebuy

[druidjaidan]

I'm looking at a M20G that is available near me.  After I initially saw it I had some concerns over the paint because we'd be moving it to a much wetter area and would have no option, but to store it outdoors.

 

My partner took a look at the plane this past weekend and did a really great job photographing everything.  We sent the photos over to a mechanic at a nearby MSC who offered to take a look.  He pointed out a large number of concerns that basically said the plane had been poorly maintained in the past, looked like some recent work had been done, but that it had a lot of work due for it in the near future.  He didn't come right out and say walk away mostly just "You should make sure you're getting a good price if you buy that plane" and a advised us that it's a lost more expensive to refurb a plane than to buy one already refurbed.

 

Here are the photos:

http://imgur.com/a/h7K6L

 

Looking for advice and a second opinion and I'm all ears.  This is our first foray into buying and so learning to identify issues that are not a problem today, but will be a problem over the next few years is challenging.

 

Thanks!

[jetdriven]

It needs a complete paint job. And all that landing gear needs to come out, some of that rust won't pass u only get 10% wall thickness.

It could be a good deal if the money is right and the engine has been flown often. Sitting often results in the proverbial 15k camshaft which adds no value. The overhaul is twice that.

[Marauder]

The repair on the right elevator may not be legal. I don't think you can just patch in a piece of replacement skin like they did. There is something not right about the area under that elevator as well.

The donuts are 2003 versions, so they are starting to get aged. Any sign of fuel staining?

A lot depends on what you can get it for. You didn't show any avionics. That alone can be an expensive upgrade. What is in the panel? And does it work?

As Byron mentioned, has it flown regularly?

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[druidjaidan]

The engine is the biggest selling point on the plane IMO.  It's got about 620 hours on it since 2011.  So it's high enough time to not be subject to infant failure, low enough time that I could own it for many years without worry about the overhaul, and has been flown plenty.  Most of the engine accessories have been replaced.

 

The history I have is that the plane was bought by it's current owner in poor condition.  A bunch of money dumped into catching up (including an overhaul), and what's left is what hasn't been done yet.

 

The paint is clearly terrible, but I'm not sure if that's mostly a cosmetic issue or something that needs to be done right way.  The gear is very concerning, and was the biggest concern of the mechanic's.  As well as lot of signs of neglect or just the bare minimum being done: brake hoses that are toast, corrosion mitigation work, a poorly done patch on the right elevator, firesleeve missing on the fuel line and improperly installed, a very old carb, a prop that is way past it overhaul, and some other misc small concerns.

 

As for the panel...yeah I missed adding that, it was in a previous photo set.  To give the basics...it's a Garmin 420 and a KX155 and nothing else really worth noting.  Pretty basic, just PC no autopilot.  Manual gear, pump flaps.  No engine monitor just a single probe EGT.  Price is 43k, so I think too high for the amount of risk posed.  On the plus side everything in the panel worked like a charm and the biggest plus for me was the Garmin as I would much much prefer to buy one already installed since they are pricey to buy and install.

[Marauder]

The engine is the biggest selling point on the plane IMO. It's got about 620 hours on it since 2011. So it's high enough time to not be subject to infant failure, low enough time that I could own it for many years without worry about the overhaul, and has been flown plenty. Most of the engine accessories have been replaced.

The history I have is that the plane was bought by it's current owner in poor condition. A bunch of money dumped into catching up (including an overhaul), and what's left is what hasn't been done yet.

The paint is clearly terrible, but I'm not sure if that's mostly a cosmetic issue or something that needs to be done right way. The gear is very concerning, and was the biggest concern of the mechanic's. As well as lot of signs of neglect (brake hoses that are toast, corrosion mitigation work, a poorly done patch on the right elevator, firesleeve missing on the fuel line and improperly installed, a very old carb, a prop that is way past it overhaul, and some other misc small concerns.

As for the panel...yeah I missed adding that, it was in a previous photo set. To give the basics...it's a Garmin 420 and a KX155 and nothing else really worth noting. Pretty basic, just PC no autopilot. Manual gear, pump flaps. No engine monitor just a single probe EGT. Price is 43k, so I think too high for the amount of risk posed.

What did the mechanic say about the elevator. I really don't think you can patch a control surface like that. That alone will cost you $800 to re skin it.

I agree. There are others out there. If the plane was valued in the high 20s, I might consider it if I were looking. You should make a list of potential expenses to help with the negotiations.

Like;

Paint $10k

Interior $?

Avionics upgrade $X

Re skin elevator $800

New donuts $1100

Fuel tank reseal $8000 ?

It adds up in a hurry...

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[druidjaidan]

Yup agree, my biggest fear with buying is getting into a plane with a crap ton of surprises waiting for me.  I want to do my best to avoid that.

 

The mechanic said the elevator looked poorly done and he asked me to get copies of the logs for the repair (as well as logs for some other stuff).  He didn't seem to think it was a total botch, or at least that's not the gist I got. However, by the time we were done talking he had steered me in the direction of moving on.  Despite that not really being in his best interest since he'd have gotten the prebuy, and the unlikeliness of the next plane being close enough to have it taken to his shop.

 

Either way his willingness to go over the photos and give advice was greatly appreciated and assuming we find a plane to buy I'll be taking it to him for maintenance and annuals for sure. 

[Marauder]

At least he is honest. It is a shame because that G is only a few N numbers from my F.

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[StinkBug]

  Price is 43k, so I think too high for the amount of risk posed.  

 

Way too high. I paid less than that for my C with a mid time engine, fresh cylinders and a very nice panel. My paint is aging, but it's WAY better than that one.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Walk.

[gsxrpilot]

Either acquire it for $20K or walk away. Take a look at my gallery and see if that plane is only $5K away from mine.

[orionflt]

Just a quick look thru the photos and from what you say the asking price is you do not want to take on this project. as for the elevator patch, that is a primary flight control surface so any repair like shown would require engineering approval and a FAA 337. if there is only a log book sign off for the repair then the aircraft is not airworthy. also if there is a 337 but no engineering data and a sign off from a DER the airworthiness may be in question.

 

Brian

[jkhirsch]

As a younger person, I've weighed in before on this issue and I'll weigh in similarly again.

 

If you have been in the market looking around and decided this is the plane for you it's worth putting some effort into it.

If it's local it makes the entire process somewhat easier.

 

Here's how I would handle it:

 

Talk to the seller and see if he is willing to agree to an entire annual done by a different mechanic.

You can negotiate the terms of payment of that cost, or discount the asking price by the price of the annual.

 

After the inspection is complete and the "laundry list" of items that need attention is compiled then you and the owner can negotiate some more. Theoretically, if he doesn't sell you the plane, that annual is now on record and should the airplane come back "unairworthy" he's either going to have to discount the price and sell as-is to someone else, or fix the plane himself and try to price and sell accordingly again.

 

If you are fiscally set up to buy the plane a few extra dollars to initiate, or in the worst case end up paying for only the creation of the "laundry list" items is not that big of a deal.

 

In my opinion without seeing logbooks or anything else, 43k seems like a heavily "good engine" weighted price and may well be too high.

 

For me, without a list of "potential problems" it's very difficult to determine the actual value of the plane.

[PTK]

druidjaidan, how long have you been shopping and how many airplanes have you looked at?

[carusoam]

You need a second opinion...?

Go see a second Mooney for sale, form an opinion of which is better....

*****

If you were a mechanic...

And, you had a project plane and a used motor, you could put them together, add a cowl closure and make it look like things are getting better. This looks like somebody's project that is still being worked on...

******

Has anyone noticed the amount of oil dripping out of the original quick drain on the prized engine?

'Walk' is generous advice for a Franken-plane. But, this Franken isn't near done yet...

Run...

Run to the next plane on your list to, at least, get a comparison for price and quality. There are worse out there. There is probably better ones for the same price...

****

JK has some real world experience you may get something from...

Buying used machinery takes a fair amount of effort. Are you ready for this?

Best regards,

-a-

[Danb]

no don't walk..run theres to many better planes out there for you..without troubling issues

[Andy95W]

Don't marry the first girl you sleep with or buy the first airplane you look at.

From your pictures, what worried me the most were the brand new angle aluminum and rivets in the left main gear well, just inboard of the retract truss. Wonder what THAT was covering up.

[Shadrach]

It certainly has issues. in addition to the elevator, it appears as thought he right aileron has been dinged and then straightened.  While the gear has a fair amount of surface rust, I did not see anything that looked like it was below spec there are no guarantees though.  If the engine is solid and documented, then this bird is likely worth about 20-25K. The gear needs to be addressed soon. Asking price is a pipe dream.  The owner if likely doing his best mitigate his own poorly made purchase.  I used to wholesale cars and the guy who mentored me told me that from cars to houses, buying well is far more important part of making/preserving capital than selling. 

 

IF you're a first time Mooney buyer, this is likely not the plane for you. It might work out for someone that has the time and expertise to devote to it.  You probably ought to hold out for something more "turn key"...

[Shadrach]

Don't marry the first girl you sleep with or buy the first airplane you look at.

From your pictures, what worried me the most were the brand new angle aluminum and rivets in the left main gear well, just inboard of the retract truss. Wonder what THAT was covering up.

 

It looks like a few stiffeners were replaced, likely due to some degree of corrosion. No effort has been made to hide the work. I would certainly inquire about what was done, but on an older plane, I'd prefer to see that work has been done.  Someone could have much more easily hid the corrosion with bondo and or scotchweld and then spray bombed it...after a few months of dirt and dust, no one would be the wiser.  With brings up another point.  Make sure that any aircraft that is being considered for purchase has been thoroughly cleaned for inspection.  It's much easier to spot issues when they are not covered in a layer of greasy, dirt laden funk...

[druidjaidan]

Don't marry the first girl you sleep with or buy the first airplane you look at.

From your pictures, what worried me the most were the brand new angle aluminum and rivets in the left main gear well, just inboard of the retract truss. Wonder what THAT was covering up.

 

That one was actually talked about by the owner.  Corrosion mitigation work done by the MSC near Portland OR.  Since it was disclosed and documented it was a low concern for me, it just meant I would point that out to the mechanic doing the prebuy to be thorough when looking for signs of further issues.

 

druidjaidan, how long have you been shopping and how many airplanes have you looked at?

 

Only strongly for a couple months.  Though it took a few months before that to really dial in our mission, needs, and budget and settle on looking for F and G model Mooneys.  This was the first we looked at, though we've looked at two since:  An E model (ruled out by my wife due to cargo space concerns with a baby, and a inability to carry our larger friends) and a cherokee 235 (ruled out because it was above budget, under equipped for IFR, and would be more expensive to feed).

 

 

Just a quick look thru the photos and from what you say the asking price is you do not want to take on this project. as for the elevator patch, that is a primary flight control surface so any repair like shown would require engineering approval and a FAA 337. if there is only a log book sign off for the repair then the aircraft is not airworthy. also if there is a 337 but no engineering data and a sign off from a DER the airworthiness may be in question.

 

Brian

 

My hunch is that the repair was done legally, though I agree it doesn't look good.  The plane has been through two annuals at the MSC near Portland.  I expect they wouldn't have been signed off otherwise.

 

That said, this thread has more than confirmed what the mechanic advised.  I tend to not trust anyone in financial matters without confirmation and I've never worked with the mechanic before, so I wanted a quick double check.  I will be running away.  Sad, because not having to buy from someone on the other end of the country would have made this a far less intimidating experience. But this is definitely not the plane for me

[DXB]

BTW very solid advice provided on this thread.  As a first time buyer 6 months ago of a very similar plane (a C model), I wish I'd gone through a screening process similar to what you are getting here.  Probably would have saved me a few amu's.  In today's market, this is certainly not a 43k plane. That sketchy elevator repair may be a deal breaker even if you could negotiate down a good bit.  On the upside, if it's a G model you want, the handful that come up for sale seem better cared for and nicer on average than the typical C-F models for sale.

[kmyfm20s]

Run!

[jkhirsch]

Let me start out this post by stating the obvious:

 

"Every single person looking to buy a plane would like to have an amazingly simple transaction on a beautiful "turn-key" airplane."

 

I tend to believe that if something's worth having, it's worth working for.

 

Therefore, I see no reason for everyone to instill this panic here; if it has truly been annual-ed by an MSC then everything should be in order. That doesn't mean I'm taking my cash briefcase over to the current owner, but it means I'm going to follow through with the due dilegence phase of a purchase.

 

It basically costs nothing to have a different mechanic look at all of those photos and compare them to a logbook, or even better yet to have a mechanic out to see the plane in person and compare it to the logbook. Take the guy to lunch and you might pay zero dollars for his time.Then you aren't even in for an annual, you're just in for seeing if it even passes a mechanic's smell test, instead of a bunch of us over the internet.

 

Let's remember a key point: There's no such thing as a bad airplane, just a bad price.

If the seller is amicable and truly interested in selling then a simple conversation is absolutely worth having.

 

What matters is that work is done according to AC 43.13 and documented correctly by the mechanic who did it, every other opinion is nonsense.

 

If this thing is literally based on the field where you would base it you're crazy to "run" because the logistics are so easy to deal with.

 

P.S. I also sent you a PM, maybe you didn't respond on purpose

[Immelman]

Ugly paint... IMO overlook it. You can just as easily be wowed by fantastic paint to have something lurking underneath. Adjust price accordingly.

 

No one has mentioned it so I will: What is with the repair on the spar in one of the MLG wheel wells, pic #8???

[druidjaidan]

 

 

If this thing is literally based on the field where you would base it you're crazy to "run" because the logistics are so easy to deal with.

 

 

 

I might be more willing to risk if it was on the same field, but it's an hour flight away.  The MSC is also about 40min flying north as well.  That's convenient for sure, but not enough to make me convinced this is the plane at all. 

 

I think there are better options on the market given the condition and issues the photos exposed.  As well my partner would prefer an F and I certainly wouldn't mind.

[druidjaidan]

Ugly paint... IMO overlook it. You can just as easily be wowed by fantastic paint to have something lurking underneath. Adjust price accordingly.

 

No one has mentioned it so I will: What is with the repair on the spar in one of the MLG wheel wells, pic #8???

 

I believe that the same corrosion repair, just from a different angle?