Very frustrating. This does not help GA.

[PTK]

Another plane down in Massachusetts. Crashed short of airport into a house and three onboard perished.

 

Why is this happening? This is a crisis that we in GA must deal with. We are GA, each and everyone of US.

 

This kind of stuff does not help GA. Can't have planes crashing in peoples' homes.

 

People on the ground heard engine sputtering before it crashed. It flew just fine for about 250 nm from KLNS for KOWD. But crashed short. Fuel starvation?? If so it's totally preventable. No excuse.

 

I'm sorry. Very frustrated. May they rest in peace.

[M20F]

Would appear to be a mechanical issue in IMC

http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=95774

[The-sky-captain]

A good buddy of mine just bought into a Bonanza with 2 other individuals. One, a 70 plus year old, left Destin a couple weeks ago and "didn't have time" to fuel up. Long story short he launched into IMC, flew to Atlanta, made two missed approaches and promptly ran out of fuel. He got lucky and walked away as did his passenger but it was incredibly stupid nonetheless. Plane was put down on a road but had 47k of damage done to it.

[Danb]

IT SEEMS LIKE THESE COME IN WAVES..LAST YEAR THERE WERE A LOT OF ACCIDENTS SEEMINGLY FROM HYPOXIA, AGREED IF IT WAS FUEL STARVATION IT MAKES ALL OF US LOOK BAD ..GA ANOTHER BLACK EYE.. I DO PRAY FOR THERE FAMILIES AND THAT THESE INCIDENTS ARE FAR AND FEW.. I'M FLYING FROM WILMINGTON DE TO LONGVIEW TX ON SUNDAY AND AT THIS POINT IN MY PLANNING OTHER THAN LONG RANGE WEATHER PLANNING ..SINCE I HAVE LONG RANGE TANKS IS LOOKING AT LANDING SITE(S) FOR FUEL...THIS AT THIS POINT IS THE MOST DIFFICULT DECISION..MANY SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT

1. CUT BACK ON POWER AND FLY NON-STOP

2. FIND A GOOD SPOT FOR REASONABLE FUEL MULTIPLE RUNWAYS, TOWER OR NOT..FLY HALF WAY, THREE QUARTERS OF THE WAY AND THEN A LITTLE IN THE END

THESE ARE ALL DIFFERENT ANSWERS AND OPTIONS FOR LONG CROSS COUNTRIES..IS YOU ASK 10 PILOTS I'D ASSUME CLOSE TO 10 DIFFERENT OPINIONS..

MOST LIKELY THE DECISION WILL BE WEATHER BASED, EG. SINCE I HAVE A COMMERCIAL FLIGHT HOME IF POOR WEATHER IS FORECAST THEN LEAVE A DAY OR SO EARLY AND VIEW SCENIC WEST TEXAS..

THE MAIN POINT IS FOR FUEL STARVATION NOT TO BE AN ISSUE..

[romair]

You can listen to the ATC audio. It is on liveatc.net, under interesting recordings. N5626D. Makes you cringe, they had engine failure in IMC while setting up for approach. Does not seem to be fuel starvation, pilot reports significant vibration before the engine quit. Flying single engine in hard IMC is becoming less and less appealing to me...

[cliffy]

Even with the total production we have today, the total number of "our" GA airplanes is dwindling down.

Many times because of avoidable mistakes. With the number of "old" airplanes and their hull values,

lots of "other than normal" landings are totalled out to the junkies.

Have many of us have ever tracked the number of wrecks in GA every week, week after week after week?

Or do we just follow those that make the news cycles?

Its sobering to follow the story. What was the phrase in Bubba Gump?

Stupid is as stupid does?

We, as a group, keep making the same mistakes year after year after year. The same ones made 75 years ago.

One would think that we would learn but the knowledge is not being transferred to new pilots or if it

is, it's being ignored. Both are not good for us as an industry.

After 50+ years of flying from FL450 down to scud running I've formed a couple of positions on flying.

One of them is that this business of ours can kill us, as Lt. Selfridge found out back in 1908 while

flying with Orville Wright.

Hisory repeats itself and those who ignore history are bound to repeat it, up front and very personal!

[Bob]

Live ATC has audio listed under "interesting recordings".   Both the pilot and controller worked very hard to avoid the outcome.  Very sad result!

[Marauder]

You can listen to the ATC audio. It is on liveatc.net, under interesting recordings. N5626D. Makes you cringe, they had engine failure in IMC while setting up for approach. Does not seem to be fuel starvation, pilot reports significant vibration before the engine quit. Flying single engine in hard IMC is becoming less and less appealing to me...

I listened to the audio yesterday and it is shocking. Especially in the beginning where he begins to stutter a bit obviously coming to the realization he is in trouble.

I went through a situation in the 90s that changed my perspective to flying single engine in IMC. I still fly IMC but a lot more conservatively than back in my invincible days.

My understanding the pilot/owner was a physician from Tennessee and an active pilot. RIP...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GaryP1007]

The weather was nasty up here yesterday.  A lot of low level turbulence and visibility very limited.  Rain was heavy prior to this flight getting into the Boston area, but still mist and a tough IMC environment.  Prayers go out to all involved. 

[gsengle]

This is heartbreaking/chilling.  This is why I won't fly single engine IMC without pretty decent ceilings below.  Same reason I rarely fly at night.

 

g

[N33GG]

This is heartbreaking/chilling.  This is why I won't fly single engine IMC without pretty decent ceilings below.  Same reason I rarely fly at night.

 

g

+1

 

When I was younger, and needed "hours", I flew any airplane anywhere in any weather, day or night.  Now that I am older, not so much any more.

 

Hmmm... some old grey headed pilots told me this would happen to me some day.  When I was 25, I didn't believe them.  Looks like they were right!

[Alan Fox]

It is incredibly irresponsible to ASSUME that he ran out of fuel........ 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Statistically most likely reason for GA engine failure is fuel exhausted or fuel mis-managed.

[M20F]

Statistically most likely reason for GA engine failure is fuel exhausted or fuel mis-managed.

I don't think anyone disputes that but would agree with N74795 in that assuming that is true in this case is a little premature.

[MyNameIsNobody]

My thinking is insensitive regarding the post title and it's message. I do not feel frustration. I feel sadness at the loss of three lives and the upheaval of those in their castle, only to have it come burning down around them. Just a sad day. Machines break. Makes me think how important maintenance, pre-flight, planning for contingencies and staying within personal minimums. My thoughts and prayers are with the families of those lost and others impacted by the accident.

[Alan Fox]

Also if anyone read the news article and saw the pics , it took three hours from the impact , until it was extinguished , I think there was considerable fuel on board.....Just sayin...

[Marauder]

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/29434635/tennessee-couple-and-daughter-killed-when-plane-crashes-into-massachusetts-house

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ryoder]

I don't like flying out of KCLW for this reason. There are houses everywhere. If you lose an engine after takeoff you will have no choice but to die while possibly taking out someone's home. At KZPH there are fields all around and options.

[GeorgePerry]

Another plane down in Massachusetts. Crashed short of airport into a house and three onboard perished.

 

Why is this happening? This is a crisis that we in GA must deal with. We are GA, each and everyone of US.

 

This kind of stuff does not help GA. Can't have planes crashing in peoples' homes.

 

People on the ground heard engine sputtering before it crashed. It flew just fine for about 250 nm from KLNS for KOWD. But crashed short. Fuel starvation?? If so it's totally preventable. No excuse.

 

I'm sorry. Very frustrated. May they rest in peace.

 

Peter,

 

I agree...and that's why AOPA's Air Safety Institute works hard every day making over 300 safety education products free and available to all pilots, not just AOPA members.  The goal is to help give pilots the knowledge necessary to avoid common pitfalls and make flying as safe as it can be.  General Aviation (not just mooney pilots) is a small community and getting smaller each year.  Those of us who love to fly have to set aside time to continue the learning process.  One of the things that I emphasize at my Safety Seminars, is adopting the correct safety mindset.  A general aviation plane is no place to take unnecessary risks.  Setting and adhering to a set of personal minimums is the best way to leave an "out" when things go wrong.

 

Here's a copy of an article that will soon be published in flight training magazine.  Sharing information like this and a continual desire to learn is the best way to help one another avoid this kind of tragedy.  

 

Setting Your “Personal Minimums” as a Pilot By: George Perry AOPA Air Safety Institute

 

We hear the term “Personal Minimums” tossed around quite a bit in general aviation flying, but what does it really mean? What criteria should a pilot use to set personal minimums and how do we “enforce” them when push comes to shove? Before we delve too far into that question, it’s important to set the stage with two other terms we hear frequently and really focus in on what each means. Currency and proficiency have similar definitions but they couldn’t be more different. Being current under the Federal Aviation Regulations means you can “legally” act as a pilot in command of an aircraft. Being proficient means you’re "fully competent." Another way to say this is Current = Legal and Proficient = Safe. Assuming this is true there are circumstances where adverse conditions exist and being current is not enough to guarantee safety.

 

The FAA defines currency through the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR’s); we all know that. But who defines proficient? The short answer is – Nobody. That responsibility falls largely on the shoulders of the Pilot in Command (PIC) and it’s usually a judgment call. Another consideration is that each person’s definition of proficient may be different, along with their inherent abilities, background, and experience. So in the absence of firm guidance, it’s up to pilot to determine whether or not to go flying and what conditions are acceptable to avoid a situation that exceeds their skill level or the aircraft’s abilities. Voilà - Personal Minimums are what we’ve come up with to help guide that decision making process. That sounds great, but without much aviation experience, it’s hard for a pilot to set their own personal minimums because they just don’t have the requisite background to make an informed decision. That’s OK because it’s part of the learning process and flying should be a team sport. In this case, it makes sense to get a second opinion. Ask an experienced pilot or instructor to help with the Go/No-Go decision.

 

When pilots start to think about setting personal minimums they usually start with weather conditions. VFR / IFR qualifications come into play but an IFR ticket shouldn’t be thought of as a free pass. A pilot might be current and proficient to fly in low overcast and shoot approaches down to 200 ½. However personal minimums should also consider safety margins when things don’t go as planned. What if the engine were to quit in those conditions? The pilot would be “blind” until gliding down to 200 feet and at that altitude there’s little time to find a “soft” spot to land. It’s important to think about personal minimums as more than just a “weather based” decision. There are lots of factors to consider. Cross winds, runway lengths, fuel reserves, night flying, aircraft performance, how much rest the pilot’s had, etc. All of these factors are important to ensure an acceptable level of safety. Personal minimums are your minimums, tailored to your experience, strengths, and weaknesses as well as your level of proficiency.

 

One way to formalize personal minimums and decisions around whether or not to go flying is to simply write them down. Create a personal “Standard Operating Procedures” for yourself or your group. If you are part of a group, flight school, or fly with partners, it makes a lot of sense to write down group specific personal minimums that everyone can agree to. When written in black and white the decision process is more formal and will be more likely to be adhered to. Even if you own an aircraft outright, it makes sense to write down your basic Go/No-Go criteria so in the heat of the moment, you can reference thoughts made earlier without the pressures associated with Get-Home-Itis. Once personal minimums are set, some requirements may remain on the list forever, while others may change or be eliminated as skills grow. Periodically review the criteria and make changes as you gain experience and comfort flying in varying conditions. Lastly, personal minimums aren't just for beginners. Every pilot regardless of experience, every flight club and every organization that flies airplanes, should have standard operating procedures that specify personal minimums. The best kind of accident is the one that was avoided. Set and use personal minimums because they are proven to help pilots make smart decisions before ever leaving the ground.

 

About the Author George Perry is Senior Vice President of AOPA’s Air Safety Institute. He has been active as a general aviation pilot since the age of 16, and recently culminated a 20+ year career in the Navy as an F-18E squadron commander. In addition to being an F-14 and F-18 instructor pilot, he has over 850 carrier-arrested landings, holds ATP, CFII, and MEI certificates, and has logged over 5000 flying hours. 

[cliffy]

As I sit here with 50+ years of flying (Wright Bros Award), 7 jet type ratings and 20,000+ hrs,

reading Mr Perry's article, it seems he hits the nail on the head with something I have also been

preaching for a long time. Just because I have a license that says I can don't mean its the

smartest decision. I have been known (in my way younger days) to depart in my Cessna 140 with venturi

driven gyros into zero/zero conditions on a regular basis. I've done all the 600 RVR Autolands

in blowing snow while flying 727s, 757s and A320s that I ever want to do. In the not to distant past I

would do 1000 RVR takeoffs in an MU-2 but no more. Now that I'm retired and flying 1/10th the amount I

did and 1/100th the amount of IMC, I am rapidly turning into a day VFR type. Could I still hack a 200/ 1/2?

Sure! Could I depart with a 100 foot ceiling and be OK, sure but I don't want to anymore. It's just not

worth the risk to me any more. Too many "what ifs".

There is an old says that goes like this- "You can only rub the fur of a cat backwrds for so long until

the cat takes exception!" I've been rubbung the fur backwards for a long, long time.

[Danb]

Cliffy ..its time for all of to be nice to little kitty...

[Danb]

Just listened to liveatc feed that is most chilling..and extremely tearful..we lead an extremely dangerous sport,hobby,lifestyle or job call it what you may..but the recording is so upsetting it really makes me look in the mirror, and do I reevaluate my choices I've made in my life, this is an easy question for those who may be single, no children, friends,family I don't even know what I'm typing or trying to say..Godspeed to all of us??

[Marauder]

Just listened to liveatc feed that is most chilling..and extremely tearful..we lead an extremely dangerous sport,hobby,lifestyle or job call it what you may..but the recording is so upsetting it really makes me look in the mirror, and do I reevaluate my choices I've made in my life, this is an easy question for those who may be single, no children, friends,family I don't even know what I'm typing or trying to say..Godspeed to all of us??

It is troubling to listen to because any of us can be in that situation. It hit me pretty hard once I learned it was a college trip. My son goes off to college this Fall, his orientation was yesterday and I thought about this family and a college orientation that didn't happen.

Be careful out there...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[bonal]

Can't seem to be able to access ATC live perhaps it's jus as well I don't hear it. I remember AOPA did a re enactment of a Debonare that was lost and ATC kept advising VFR not recommended but the pilot continued to challeng the weather which cost him his life. I know this is a different situation but when I hear of mechanical related accidents they give me the most concern because it's not something you can always control. At least pilot error gives us an opportunity to learn an avoid. Watching the AOPA video was very upsetting as you knew the outcome and you wanted to stop the pilot and say listen to what they are advising and turn around. My prayers are with the left behind I'm thankful none of the people in the home were injured. Yes we do assume a great risk and hopefully my flying will remain safe and I always do the right to keep the risk to a minimum.

To all of you I pray you fly safe and smart.

[Browncbr1]

It turns out this family is from my home base. My friend knew the wife My wife read something this morning that there is also a daughter that just graduated UT that is at home. Her family gone. Absolutely Terrible.