Engines, Cam, etc... food for thought...

[Guitarmaster]

Hey guys.

 

Spent a considerable amount of time at the engine shop on the field (c77) today.  In light of all the discussion points about Camguard, different oils and the like, I thought I would share an opinion from someone that sees hundreds of engines a year from all over the world.

First question I had was about oil analysts.  He was not a big fan.  He said it OK and if it makes you sleep better, by all means do it.  You might have a "slight" advantage in catching a problem early, but any major issue will be apparent in the oil filter.  Cutting and inspecting the oil filter is paramount.

Along this lines I asked about my IO-360.  As good as they come.  RARELY a problem with anything but the cam., but here is the interesting part...

Rust does not cause the cam failure.  In other words, he has seen the cam completely rusted, but no spalling.  I know this flies, so to speak, in the face of commonly held beliefs.  He has seen engines from the '60's full of rust and the moving parts perfectly fine.  The problem lies in the metallurgy of the '90's.  I will do some follow-up, but there was a time period (early to mid 90's) where the metallurgy was crap.  It was both a Lycoming and Continental problem.  I'm not saying rust is good, but it doesn't appear to be the cause of cam failure.

Mine was overhauled in '97 after a nose gear collapse.  He is checking for me, but is pretty sure they had the problem resolved by then.  Here's hoping!

His opinion of Camguard:  Whatever makes you feel better.  They have seen no appreciable difference in engines that have come in for overhaul.  I have two bottles for sale if you are interested.

Synthetic or Blend oils:  Run the other way!

The shop's experience has been that Phillips 20-50XC gives the best results.  I changed to this during the last oil change and my consumption seems to be nearly zero.  The engine must like it.    With Aeroshell W80, it was about 1qt/10 hours.

 

Oversquare:  His response?  Are you nuts??  The ICP is HUGE!  I made mention of turbo airplanes running like that.  First, turbos have low compression pistons, but second, the wear on a turboed motor is "significant" compared to a N/A.  This is the case even with a TN set-up.

Take it for what it's worth.  It made me feel WAY better about my motor.  





 

[Bob_Belville]

I am reminded again of the Ivy Baker Priest quote: "often wrong, but never in doubt".

 

Gird your loins. 

[mpg]

Hey guys.

 

Mine was overhauled in '97 after a nose gear collapse.  

 

 

Good post,, and it agrees with about 50% of the opinions expressed here...

 

But please go to general Mooney talk, find the new "collapsed nose gear" thread, and tell us all the gory details of your experience. 

  

 

[Guitarmaster]

Just passing information. No ax to grind here.

[mpg]

Just passing information. No ax to grind here.

I dont know why,  but I guess that was for me.

I really enjoyed your post about the oils the cams with the engines and the wear.

 

But I Really did wish that you would tell us your experience with a nose gear collapse!

[MyNameIsNobody]

600 post overhaul running camguard and Phillips. LOP (10-50) burning 9-10 GPH. No oversquare for me. To each his/her own. It's working so far...so good.

[Sabremech]

That's some of the best information on the real world life of our engines. Very much the same opinion that I hold and hence my not using any additives etc.

Thank you,

David

[Guitarmaster]

I would love to tell you more about the nose gear collapse but I simply don't know all the details. It happened before I owned the airplane. The broker that I bought it from said, "the over center spring broke.". Don't know though.

In doing my best to piece together the incident from the log books, it seems that the aircraft landed, and nose gear collapsed and it veered off the runway.

I'm afraid that's the best I can do.

[PTK]

This concurs with what a local A&P was telling me a couple years ago about one airplane, and just the other day about another one that happened to be in his shop for annual.

It's the story of two airplanes which had sat parked and not moved for over ten years. One was a Cessna sitting outside in local field for 13 years! The other was up in Pennsylvania somewhere sitting in a hangar covered in a half inch thick dust! Both Lycomings. Had not moved for over ten years.

Long story short, they changed the batteries and checked for oil level. They cranked right up! What's remarkable both are flying today and not making metal!

He also thinks camguard is a waste of money.

I proceeded and asked him the obvious question about the cam lifter interface. He explained to me what I thought was interesting. People talk about the cam lifter interface as being the highest pressured metal to metal interface in the engine. At least that was my understanding. He was telling me that there has to be and there is clearance for oil to get through! Ever so small but there is clearance.

These for what they're worth are real world data points from the field.

Are we (collectively) a gullible and captive audience? Sitting ducks brainwashed to be scared to death that we'll believe anything?

"...your engine is very "expensive" you want to "protect" it...don't you?????? Here... Do I have the thing for you!!! A magic potion your engine will love!! Dump this in your engine oil and sleep well at night!!... It's "protected"....

Oh...by the way do change your oil regularly and always replenish my magic potion!!!"

Really!?

[Andy95W]

Are we (collectively) a gullible and captive audience? Sitting ducks brainwashed to be scared to death that we'll believe anything?

Yes, we probably are, but I think it is more than likely a human trait. We fear the unknown and things we cannot control, so we grasp at anything, no matter how irrational, that may have the slightest effect.

This also explains why a person would wear a tin foil hat to ward off the microwaves the government uses to control our thoughts. It also explains religion, prayer, racism, and why an Islamic terrorist becomes a suicide bomber so he can get his 72 virgins.

I am not as convinced about engine additives as I once was. I think camshaft health has far more to do with luck and metallurgy than anything we as pilots do.

But I won't criticize or denounce someone who is gullible, just as I won't make fun of someone for their religion or funny tin foil hats.

And I hope the 72 virgins all look like Marauder's girls.

[Marauder]

Hey guys.

Spent a considerable amount of time at the engine shop on the field (c77) today. In light of all the discussion points about Camguard, different oils and the like, I thought I would share an opinion from someone that sees hundreds of engines a year from all over the world.

First question I had was about oil analysts. He was not a big fan. He said it OK and if it makes you sleep better, by all means do it. You might have a "slight" advantage in catching a problem early, but any major issue will be apparent in the oil filter. Cutting and inspecting the oil filter is paramount.

Along this lines I asked about my IO-360. As good as they come. RARELY a problem with anything but the cam., but here is the interesting part...

Rust does not cause the cam failure. In other words, he has seen the cam completely rusted, but no spalling. I know this flies, so to speak, in the face of commonly held beliefs. He has seen engines from the '60's full of rust and the moving parts perfectly fine. The problem lies in the metallurgy of the '90's. I will do some follow-up, but there was a time period (early to mid 90's) where the metallurgy was crap. It was both a Lycoming and Continental problem. I'm not saying rust is good, but it doesn't appear to be the cause of cam failure.

Mine was overhauled in '97 after a nose gear collapse. He is checking for me, but is pretty sure they had the problem resolved by then. Here's hoping!

His opinion of Camguard: Whatever makes you feel better. They have seen no appreciable difference in engines that have come in for overhaul. I have two bottles for sale if you are interested.

Synthetic or Blend oils: Run the other way!

The shop's experience has been that Phillips 20-50XC gives the best results. I changed to this during the last oil change and my consumption seems to be nearly zero. The engine must like it. With Aeroshell W80, it was about 1qt/10 hours.

Oversquare: His response? Are you nuts?? The ICP is HUGE! I made mention of turbo airplanes running like that. First, turbos have low compression pistons, but second, the wear on a turboed motor is "significant" compared to a N/A. This is the case even with a TN set-up.

Take it for what it's worth. It made me feel WAY better about my motor.

I truly believe there is something that has gone on over the years with the metallurgy of these engine components. Wonder if any metallurgy work was ever done on the cams to see if the content has changed over the years.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[M20F]

I think camshaft health has far more to do with luck and metallurgy than anything we as pilots do.)

I would second this but use Camguard because near as I can tell it can't hurt anything and it is cheap.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Our plane is hangered in the Midwest...but it sits. Sometimes for a couple of weeks between flights. I saw the difference between a Camguard coated piece of steel and a piece sans Camguard. My primary protection is changing the oil regularly and trying to fly the plane regularly. If it doesn't do Jack...fine. It is peanuts in the scheme of the cost of an engine. Peter, I fully understand your position on the use of Camguard. I DID, however do some research and based my decision on that research. There is no "Mystery" or trying to control fate involved. I made a decision. Excuse me I am due for my weekly appointment with my mystic...

[Shadrach]

You know what's funny, I have a set of lifters siting on a shelf in my hangar. The were removed from my engine in 2009 when we repaired a cracked case. I took them down and looked at them yesterday. They have just barely oxidized in the last 5.5 years sitting naked in my hangar. The sort of rust you can polish off with your finger. Like a brake rotor just a few hours after a rain storm. I hope the new ones in the engine are fairing as well!

[bonal]

I would second this but use Camguard because near as I can tell it can't hurt anything and it is cheap.

 

I'm thinking Lycoming and Conti's have been around forever so we have a long history to look at to learn about trends.  How long has Cam Guard even been approved for use in our engines I think its only been a few years and if so you need a much bigger sampling to get any real data like maybe 15 to 20 years and a thousand samples.  I use it and I don't think of myself as gullible if any thing I am the most skeptical person I know. if it does no harm and could possible improve my engines life span way to cheap not to use.

but I do like the Idea of a foil hat

and I think Robin Williams said it best it's not 72 virgins it's 72 Virginians.

[Sabremech]

I'm going to save the $25 per oil change which equates to $1000 over 2000 hr TBO and 50 hour oil changes. That $1000 can be spent on avgas.

[ryoder]

Camguard reminds me of Slick 50. Remember that stuff? I don't think people use it anymore.

[PTK]

I'm thinking Lycoming and Conti's have been around forever so we have a long history to look at to learn about trends. How long has Cam Guard even been approved for use in our engines I think its only been a few years and if so you need a much bigger sampling to get any real data like maybe 15 to 20 years and a thousand samples. I use it and I don't think of myself as gullible if any thing I am the most skeptical person I know. if it does no harm and could possible improve my engines life span way to cheap not to use.

but I do like the Idea of a foil hat

and I think Robin Williams said it best it's not 72 virgins it's 72 Virginians.

If, by your own admission, "you need a much bigger sampling to get any real data like maybe 15 to 20 years and a thousand samples."

Then how do you know "...it does no harm and could possible improve my engines life span..."?

You have reached a conclusion without even having formulated a hypothesis! That denotes "gullibility!"

Is it me or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?

[Alan Fox]

Here's a fact , the cams spall , when the lifters stop turning , Question , why do the lifters stop turning ???

[bonal]

If, by your own admission, "you need a much bigger sampling to get any real data like maybe 15 to 20 years and a thousand samples."

Then how do you know "...it does no harm and could possible improve my engines life span..."?

You have reached a conclusion without even having formulated a hypothesis! That denotes "gullibility!"

Is it me or are you talking out of both sides of your mouth?

Good point but the insult that follows makes it less well taken

[cujet]

 

 

1) First question I had was about oil analysts.  He was not a big fan.  He said it OK and if it makes you sleep better, by all means do it.  You might have a "slight" advantage in catching a problem early, but any major issue will be apparent in the oil filter.  Cutting and inspecting the oil filter is paramount.

2) Along this lines I asked about my IO-360.  As good as they come.  RARELY a problem with anything but the cam., but here is the interesting part...

3) Rust does not cause the cam failure.  In other words, he has seen the cam completely rusted, but no spalling. The problem lies in the metallurgy of the '90's.  I'm not saying rust is good, but it doesn't appear to be the cause of cam failure.

 

4) His opinion of Camguard:  Whatever makes you feel better.  They have seen no appreciable difference in engines that have come in for overhaul.  I have two bottles for sale if you are interested.

5) Synthetic or Blend oils:  Run the other way!

6) The shop's experience has been that Phillips 20-50XC gives the best results.  

 

7) Oversquare:  His response?  Are you nuts??  The ICP is HUGE!   

 

 

1) Agreed, oil analysis is a tool and can "sometimes" help spot a trend. And, that's only if you perform a UOA on every oil change.

 

2) Disagree. The Lycoming 360 is not only subject to camshaft failures. Also crankcase cracks, cylinder head separation, connecting rod corrosion, piston pin wear, valve sticking, and a whole host of other failures. I believe that had the newer Lycomings are considerably better. 

 

3) Disagree. My 1974 IO360 had rust on the camshaft, and it failed at 1700 hours total time. That had nothing to do with 1990's metallurgy. 

 

4) Disagree. Camguard has proven itself in our fleet to reduce all manner of engine corrosion. Including cylinder, connecting rod small end (yes this is a problem) , camshaft, crankshaft and gear rust. And, yes, corrosion elsewhere can be damaging to your engine. Lycomings roller camshaft setup is better, smoother and more reliable. 

 

5) Disagree. Aeroshell 15W-50 semi synthetic also helps with internal corrosion issues, AND I never have valve sticking issues using 15W-50. Yet, I do have sticking issues using conventional oils. Maybe it's a hot-n-sticky Florida thing, but it's not just one data point. We've experienced this multiple times on various Lycoming engines. I don't care that my oil consumption is slightly higher on 15W-50. It's use ensures trouble free operation for us. Nor do I believe that we should consider low oil consumption rates as a major positive factor in engine life. It's not. 

 

6) Disagree. Our fleet has better results with Aeroshell 15W-50. However, I might add that Ed Collin (the maker of Camguard) prefers the Phillips. 

 

7) Agree. Oversquare at high manifold pressure does result in the highest possible cylinder pressure. 

 

[M20F]

Good video from Mike Busch on oil. I will say based on his feedback, Maxwell's, and Ed Collins I have moved to Phillips.

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001

[ryoder]

My IA sells me oil for four bucks a quart cash. Consequently I don't even remember the brand.

[marks]

I flew my IO360 to 2,445 hours in my '83 Beech Sierra and at annual my IA found that an exhaust valve guide had worn beyond limits so I got an overhaul. It was a first run engine and I flew the plane five days a week on average. I live on an island surrounded with salt water.  I stored the plane outdoors.  In winter there was so much moisture in the engine that I often pulled up oily blobs of ice on the dip stick.  I usually flew fifteen minutes in the morning and the same thing each evening to commute to work off-island.  I changed the oil and filter at 40 to 45 hours and used AeroShell 15W50.  I always cruised at 75% power.  It's a total sample of just 1 airplane, but I have to believe the longevity resulted from frequent use.